Backing Down? Why Bother When Tide Changes

[Pelagic]

I'll back you on that Jim![emoji106]

[JPA Cate]

...and as for me, I'm either a pig headed fool, stubborn, or persevering!

Cheers, guys!

[rognvald]

"But you keep referring to loosing anchors, presumably due to some part of the system breaking under load." Jim Cate

"And as to anchoring upwind of someone else... well, in a crowded anchorage it seems to happen fairly frequently. I'll not anchor immediately upwind of another boat unless at such a distance as to minimize the threat." Jim Cate


In thirty plus years of sailing/cruising, I have never experienced, nor heard of, someone loosing an anchor due to some part of the system "breaking under the load" unless it was a derelict vessel. Even the most casual inspection of your ground tackle by a cruising sailor when pulling the hook would reveal any deficiencies. Secondly, although we usually look for uncrowded/non-traditional anchorages whenever possible, we frequently have boats anchor ahead of us . . . especially Cats that have minimum draft. Also, there are times when we prefer to anchor in deeper water for greater privacy/quiet to avoid the bellowing herd. In this instance, you will always have boats anchored ahead of you. These are really moot points and I would agree with Jim Cate in his assessment. However, if someone's stern was over my anchor, I would ask him politely to move. Good luck and safe sailing.

[rwidman]

The only person I know of who actually lost an anchor lost it because it was hooked on something on the bottom.

As for anchoring upwind of another boat, unless you are the only boat in the anchorage, you don't have much of a choice.

I remember being the first boat in an anchorage one day and another boat came in and even though this anchorage has room for fifteen or more boats, he anchored what I considered to be too close to me. An hour later another boat came in and anchored directly between my boat and the other boat.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Suijin

You're lucky it was only 28 knots.

You said you don't have wide experience outside of the Bay. In my experience, the CQR actually works really well in the Bay; it loves mud and digs deep in it, and usually wind and tide are enough to get it to burrow because of the soft layer on top in the Chesapeake. But I think one day your luck may run out on you with respect to just dropping the hook and letting wind and tide set your anchor if you travel more widely.

I've had a few experiences over the years where I've dropped an anchor in very benign conditions for a temporary stop in an uncrowded place and not backed down on it and found myself dragging later. That all the evidence I need that unless you back down on an anchor, you don't know if it's really set.

I don't make a big production of it. Drop anchor, pay out rode, walk back to helm, reverse, 2000 RPM until the rode is tight and I'm not moving anymore. I have a maxprop so reverse at 2000 is pretty hefty. Done.

I have experience on boats in the bay, in North Carolina near Cape Lookout and down as far as Swansboro when I rounded Emerald Island trying to pick up a fellow 19 year old marine off Atlantic Beach inside the breakers on a 17' power boat. Its a long story .......a wave almost flipped us had my 16 year old wife not screamed!

I've also sailed extensively on the gulf coast where I never had an anchor onboard but sailed probably 3,000 miles or more in 12 years racing and observing cruisers

I was caught several times at Kiptopeke in strong winds with waves at least 3' due to lack of experience cruising. The PO saved me and the boat with his strong anchor and rode setup. Another time it was East of Tangier near Deep Creek maybe 25 knots. CQR's like marsh mud

I have anchored in the bay tons of times since age 16, but never overnight except for once when we lost a prop. I was 17. Long story but I almost tried to swim for it 3 miles offshore at 12 midnite but decided against it. I would have died anyway

I'll have to see how my anchors work if and when I cruise South. I have a backup Bruce (thanks PO) with heavier and longer chain (and 250' of rode) than my main anchor the CQR

The video Kmac showed though was nothing compared to what I experienced at Kiptopeke with the S to SE winds which were blowing me toward a lee shore in late November a year or so ago and a couple other times. I rigged the Bruce but was afraid to deploy thinking I might foul the CQR

During the long night, (temps near 40) I was thinking about how I would sleep after the boat hit the beach and then how I would get it off the beach. I knew I could sleep up above the cliffs if I could keep some things dry otherwise it would be pine shadows (pine needles). The following night the wind was heavy offshore. I could have been pushed under the bridge had the anchor not held and out into the Atlantic. We have lots of shipping traffic here

I bought this boat after the PO's 2 year cruise from Falmouth, MA to Florida and back as far as Deep Creek Eastern Shore Va so he must have made the CQR work. The spare chain and rode on the Bruce look new. The other three Danforths are not connected to any chain or rode

The owner of the marina where he left the boat told me the PO cruised the Bahamas during those 2 years also.

I know I was lucky though. I have the chain of the CQR out on the deck of my boat now. The shackle at the rode end has quite a bit of rust which I plan to remove

Lastly, my engine is a 5 hp outboard. It may not do much backing down anyway...

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by thomm225

so he must have made the CQR work.

No offense to your PO intended, but if you plan on anchoring much, do yourself a favor and drop the couple hundred bucks required to upgrade from the CQR. Might possibly change your life....

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/mantu...13?recordNum=5

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Delancey

No offense to your PO intended, but if you plan on anchoring much, do yourself a favor and drop the couple hundred bucks required to upgrade from the CQR. Might possibly change your life....

I never met the PO. He passed before I bought the boat for $2,000.00. It was on the hard for 5 years unattended

The PO sailed the boat from Massachusetts to Florida and the Bahamas over a period of 2 years using the anchors onboard.

I'll buy another anchor when the need arises which hasn't occurred in the 6 years I've owned the boat.

I'm using the same method of anchoring I learned as a 16 year old. Could be it's experience that matters most.

I actually used more rode on the bayside than the muddier seaside back then

Btw, half the students in my high school classes had dad's that were crabbers and oystermen on the bay. Sometimes it's simply latent learning that helps along with experience

[Jim Cate]

I'll buy another anchor when the need arises which hasn't occurred in the 6 years I've owned the boat.

Ain't that kinda like saying "I'll buy a parachute when the need arises"? And then the engine quits... at 5000 feet!

But, if the anchor has worked for so long, it will likely continue to work... as long as it does not encounter more stringent conditions than it has been in before. And just in case you have not imagined this, 28 knots is not very extreme anchoring conditions, so your "proof testing" has not explored all the likely conditions as yet.

Jim

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Ain't that kinda like saying "I'll buy a parachute when the need arises"? And then the engine quits... at 5000 feet!

But, if the anchor has worked for so long, it will likely continue to work... as long as it does not encounter more stringent conditions than it has been in before. And just in case you have not imagined this, 28 knots is not very extreme anchoring conditions, so your "proof testing" has not explored all the likely conditions as yet.

Jim

Agreed.

I was guessing 28 knots.

WX said it was 33 knots at the bridge (on one of the islands of the bridge nearby) I just guessed 28 at my location. I had to sail almost 90 degrees off the wind on one of those mornings due to increased wave heights to get away from the beach and my depth finder did hit 0 a couple times. The waves were a steep and closely spaced 5' after I cleared the cement ships that form a break water

This is the good thing about having a boat that you paid $2,000 for to earn cruising on.

https://www.google.com/search?q=kipt...0o0ab7ODB4M%3A

https://suzicate.wordpress.com/tag/c...bridge-tunnel/

[JPA Cate]

thomm225,

Thinking about your 5 horse o/b.....I'm wondering if you would get better sets with the CQR by backing down using your mainsail, pulled up to windward, to back it down.

The other thing, there is a failure mode for CQR's. The pivot hole gets worn, and the flukes do not then achieve the correct angle for setting. Solution is to have the hole re-bushed.

What is better about the new generation anchors is that they set faster. The bottom you're anchoring now may very well suited to it, and set pretty well, but I sure remember plowing furrows, trying to get a plow to set!

All, you decide what it's worth. It's offered simply as food for thought.

Ann

[catsketcher]

Our 20 year old CQR just stopped working one day. We always dig the anchor in and on our cruise north in 2014 we couldn't get it to hold more than 1/3 revs astern. Something was probably worn and the worry at night, having an anchor that can't be relied upon, had me buying a Manson Supreme as soon as we hit civilization. Going cheap on an anchor is unwise - you need to be able to rely on it so that you can relax and rest and in a wide range of conditions.

Same with digging the anchor in. Backing down is useful for everyone in the anchorage. If you watch my wife and I anchor you can be assured that we have the correct scope out, you will see the shallow angle the chain makes when we pull back. You can also see that we are checking that we are properly dug in as you will see both of us looking sideways and checking transits on shore. You may also see me with my toe lightly on top of the chain. (I can't lose my foot if the chain slips - it just rests very lightly on it, out in front of the roller). You can always just watch the chain.

A good chain whisperer can use the movement of chain to work out the bottom type they are in. Slowly throbbing chain is dragging through mud/silt. You get nasty jerks and catches in rocky areas and constant grinding in coral (but you shouldn't anchor in coral). A well set anchor vibrates the chain a bit and then the rode gets constant tension on it that stays wonderfully firm as the revs are slowly increased.

I can't make anyone do this but I appreciate when others do. It allows me to sleep better when I share the anchorage with people who have the courtesy to show me they have checked their anchor. If I have to anchor upwind of you I will demonstrate holding with more attention to transits and chain whispering. Hopefully you will be able to sleep better if I do.

Be nice to your neighbours and let them sleep well by knowing you have gotten the anchor in well. Checking that you are well dug in is seamanlike and gets you kudos when talking to fellow cruisers on the beach. There is no downside.

Even a 5hp outboard will be enough to check the anchor. Full throttle in reverse will dig out a badly set anchor and let you sleep better when you get to that new location.

cheers

Phil

[Jim Cate]

Be nice to your neighbours and let them sleep well by knowing you have gotten the anchor in well. Checking that you are well dug in is seamanlike and gets you kudos when talking to fellow cruisers on the beach. There is no downside.

Generally a good summary of good behavior IMO and IME. However, if some of the previous posters were at that beach gathering, they would be mocking you as performing useless shenanigans and behaving as a worry wart. I'd be offering you a drink and making your acquaintance as a fellow cruiser!

Jim

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

thomm225,

Thinking about your 5 horse o/b.....I'm wondering if you would get better sets with the CQR by backing down using your mainsail, pulled up to windward, to back it down.

The other thing, there is a failure mode for CQR's. The pivot hole gets worn, and the flukes do not then achieve the correct angle for setting. Solution is to have the hole re-bushed.

What is better about the new generation anchors is that they set faster. The bottom you're anchoring now may very well suited to it, and set pretty well, but I sure remember plowing furrows, trying to get a plow to set!

All, you decide what it's worth. It's offered simply as food for thought.

Ann

Thanks for the suggestion Ann, I might try that backing down using the main if I start having trouble. Or maybe I'll just try anchoring under sail a time or two this coming Spring and see how well it works after the boat swings back.

One thing you do learn really quickly after being at a bad anchorage overnight is that you don't want it to happen again because you get very little sleep.

The extra scope I use and the bottom type is probably why I haven't had any trouble with anchors coming loose. Also for the first few hours after anchoring, I usually monitor the boats position on one of the ships or some landmark. Same method since I was a teenager. I sometimes also give a few pulls on the anchor rode to see how the bottom feels after initial set

Most of my cruises are just sails up the bay anywhere from 20 to 70 miles and anchoring in a good spot to fish, hike, and kayak, etc. The bay is 30 miles wide at the most so I can usually pick the best side for anchoring based on the forecast. I do like Kiptopeke though because of the trails and the view from the cliffs. (and the restrooms) Plus my family over there can bring the dog down to visit.

I don't just say I'm going to this spot tonight or that spot anymore. I try and get near my destination but if it's on the other side of the bay I'll sail over the next day

I've been so against unprotected anchorages I anchored in 4' one night and woke to the depth finder at 1'. Make that 8', 4' from bottom on the depth finder. The boat draws about 4'

I did bump the bottom a time or two getting out of that creek. Waves, wind, and the 5 hp outboard were able to get me free so I didn't have to experiment with other methods. I really miss not having daggerboards at times that I can pull up

[IdoraKeeper]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The point of backing down is to bury the anchor in the seabed. This is known among experienced sailors as "setting the anchor".

Checking whether it is set or not, is another point of backing down.

Sorry, I made my statement too simply. Was trying to encourage backing down without being long winded. When it comes to wind and tide yanking it out...well it happens to me on occasion.

[undercutter]

Your CQR will work great in every situation except hard packed sand. Both our Bower anchors are CQR's and I would gladly part with one if it didn't require a complete rework of the grating and framework over the bowsprit. And even then, they would look ugly having to stick out sideways and under the bowsprit and it would be impossible to align one with the windlass. I guess I am stuck with the CQR but we make it work.

Have spent many a night on anchor watch when anchored in these conditions wishing that a new generation anchor could be installed on the boat however without a pivot on the shank it would not be possible. I am still searching for such an anchor but to my knowledge the CQR type is the only anchor that will fold over this way.

As has been stated before, CQR's love the mud.