Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-04-2016, 02:42   #91
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,780
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Because a Bahamian moor is a total PITA and like all multi anchor moors, prone to tangling and general buggery.
The Fortress has a reputation for popping out in wind or tide shifts and failing to reset. That is why not a single cruiser I've ever known, uses a Fortress as a bower anchor, preferring a heavy conventional anchor which you know will sink in.
I think this is a valid concern. It is not just the Fortress, but all the Danforth style anchors. Sometimes they develop a very high list and breakout, or almost breakout when changing direction.

As others have said, my opinion is that this style of anchor is best suited when there is little chance of the diricection of pull changing significantly. Fortress anchors are good stern/kedge anchors and I would suggest every cruising boats purchases one for this purpose.
__________________

noelex 77 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 03:59   #92
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The boat: Cowes (Winter), Above 60N (Summer); me: somewhere in the air!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 21,533
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I think this is a valid concern. It is not just the Fortress, but all the Danforth style anchors. Sometimes they develop a very high list and breakout, or almost breakout when changing direction.

As others have said, my opinion is that this style of anchor is best suited when there is little chance of the diricection of pull changing significantly. Fortress anchors are good stern/kedge anchors and I would suggest every cruising boats purchases one for this purpose.
Your opinion corresponds to what "everyone says", which I have heard all my life, which is why I've always assumed it's true.

But do we have any actual data? When you were doing your epic study of anchor behavior, did you actually observe this happening?


By the way, I'd like to take this opportunity to complement you on the superb work you did on anchor behavior. You should publish it.


This is why your anchor study is so great: it's all direct observation.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 04:25   #93
Registered User
 
Lizzy Belle's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Netherlands
Boat: Ohlson 29
Posts: 1,521
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Makes you wonder how boats stayed anchored before the current G2 anchors came on the market ... Poor buggers must have been dragging all over the place!

Bottom line: if whatever ground tackle you have is working for you, there's no reason to replace your anchor(s). Especially not when you can't afford it - when money is tight and you have a larger boat to maintain, there are probably better ways to spend the money you do have.

Revisit this when the cruising kitty has been refilled. There are some advantages to G2 anchors, and you could consider updating when you can afford it. Meanwhile: your anchor(s) can't read, so they don't know they're "obsolete" and will do their job just like before. According to your profile, you are already in the area you'll be anchoring most, so you should know if your current set-up is working for you.

Trust in your boat and gear should come from using it, not reading adverts and opinions on forums. Once you go down that rabbit hole, you'll end up replacing the boat too since it's not a "real blue water boat" and your keel and rudder will no doubt fall off when you leave the dock
__________________
"Il faut ętre toujours ivre." - Charles Baudelaire
Dutch ♀ Liveaboard, sharing an Ohlson 29 with a feline.
Lizzy Belle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 04:39   #94
Senior Cruiser
 
sailorF54's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Perros-Guirec, France
Boat: Jeanneau Sunshine 36
Posts: 923
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

HEAVY Fortress anchors are superb anchors because they are HUGE,
(see pic# 1 for dimensions of the 69 lbs / 31 kg model)
Compare with the size of the S140 Rocna anchor of similar weight (pic #2)
1 - They are heavy enough to exert strong pressure on the sharp tip of the flukes (pressure = % weight on tip / tip surface area) so that they penetrate rapidly and easily into mud AND sand.
2 - The fluke area is massive, hence they exhibit good to superior holding

If we turn to Fortress anchors small enough to be accommodated on our bow roller, then they are quite light. They will not develop enough pressure to penetrate (hard) sand, but they still perform well on (soft) mud as the fluke area is adequate.

PS Aluminium density is about 0.10 lbs / inch3
steel is about 0,28 lbs / inch3
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 003.JPG
Views:	323
Size:	152.6 KB
ID:	122291   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 001.JPG
Views:	68
Size:	286.7 KB
ID:	122292  

sailorF54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 04:55   #95
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The boat: Cowes (Winter), Above 60N (Summer); me: somewhere in the air!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 21,533
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
Makes you wonder how boats stayed anchored before the current G2 anchors came on the market ... Poor buggers must have been dragging all over the place!

Bottom line: if whatever ground tackle you have is working for you, there's no reason to replace your anchor(s). . . .
Well, I think we discussed that. I cruised for more than a decade with a CQR. I learned to get it set, and I had procedures to avoid waking up on the rocks. So in that sense it was "working for me" and it "held my boat". Before I tried other anchors, I just assumed that the CQR behaved in a normal manner and it was up to me to adapt to its characteristics.

But that doesn't mean that there was no reason to replace it with a better anchor -- that's a logical fallacy. I dragged anchor regularly and didn't get much sleep -- for more than 10 years. In bad weather I would even just go out to sea and heave to overnight, rather than worry all night about dragging. Was that "working for me"? Well, I didn't blame my anchor -- I thought at the time that this is just inherent to cruising.


Everyone uses whatever tools he has available to him, and considering his budget, and adapts to those tools as best he can. Of course. But that does not mean that there is nothing wrong with bad anchors, just because we've learned to live with them! That does not follow logically.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 05:03   #96
Registered User
 
Lizzy Belle's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Netherlands
Boat: Ohlson 29
Posts: 1,521
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
But that does not mean that there is nothing wrong with bad anchors, just because we've learned to live with them! That does not follow logically.
Agreed, hence the "consider upgrading when the cruising kitty has been refilled".

As with all anchors, really, I know people who went cruising way back when (with mostly CQR anchors) and while some share your experience, others had no issues. It depends on many factors ... weight / type of boat and anchor, rest of ground tackle, area and circumstances when anchored ...

Doubting gear you're using because of what you read, not what you experience, shouldn't keep you awake at night. Nor should it "force" you to buy gear you can't afford at the time.

At least - that's my 2 cents

(There's a CQR on my roller still, too, and it hasn't failed me or the previous owner (sailing between Netherlands and Azores). But yes, in the future, if I take this boat there, I'll upgrade to a G2 anchor too ...)
__________________
"Il faut ętre toujours ivre." - Charles Baudelaire
Dutch ♀ Liveaboard, sharing an Ohlson 29 with a feline.
Lizzy Belle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 05:13   #97
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Fortress's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 413
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I think this is a valid concern. It is not just the Fortress, but all the Danforth style anchors. Sometimes they develop a very high list and breakout, or almost breakout when changing direction.
.....and other anchor types with far less surface area and deep seabed burying capability can break out as well during tidal and wind shifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
As others have said, my opinion is that this style of anchor is best suited when there is little chance of the diricection of pull changing significantly.
If this was even remotely true, and the Fortress only performed well during straight line pulls, then our phones, e-mail inboxes and fax machine would have been overwhelmed with complaints after selling over 500,000 anchors to the boating public since 1986, 30 years ago.

Further still, I would have been ducking for cover at all of the boat shows we have exhibited at during my 19 years with the company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Fortress anchors are good stern/kedge anchors and I would suggest every cruising boats purchases one for this purpose.
Thank you for this recommendation. Additionally, we are located in south Florida and a hurricane region which extends throughout the Caribbean, east coast of the USA, and Gulf of Mexico. Many cruising sailors have relied on a Fortress anchor in the worst of storm conditions, and rest assured, the winds haven't always cooperated by blowing in one direction.

Noted USA boating writer and long-time cruiser Tom Neale wrote a cover story for Soundings magazine titled, "Surviving a Storm at Anchor" which can be found at the link below.

http://www.fortressanchors.com/SSA.pdf

As you will note, he has a Fortress FX-55 on his bow along with a CQR. Additionally, he has the FX-125 as his storm anchor.

And finally, this review was offered by the late E.S. "Mac" Maloney, who for several decades was the author of what has been called "The Bible of Boating," which was the book titled "Chapman Piloting and Seamanship."

"I've used a Fortress as my primary anchor in sand and mud bottoms for more than 20 years. I have found the Fortress to be thoroughly dependable."
Fortress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 05:23   #98
Registered User
 
Lizzy Belle's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Netherlands
Boat: Ohlson 29
Posts: 1,521
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortress View Post
Tom Neale / E.S. "Mac" Maloney
Henk de Velde: "Lizzy - stop comparing and just buy a Rocna. Never failed me".

Everybody has their preferences ... so for me (and this is, of course, personal), price and availability along with recommendations from cruisers I know personally will determine which anchor I'll buy - which will probably be a Rocna, since it 'scores' best on all 3 points.
__________________
"Il faut ętre toujours ivre." - Charles Baudelaire
Dutch ♀ Liveaboard, sharing an Ohlson 29 with a feline.
Lizzy Belle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 05:24   #99
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: floating around ... hopefully in aqua clear swimming pool water!
Boat: 1985 Passport 37
Posts: 172
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Are you dragging regularly? If not, marketing has gotten to you. I note you do not mention Spade, our anchor of choice, but even more expensive.

Our buddy boat throughout the Western Caribbean for six years used an oversize Bruce as his primary anchor. In the shallow clear water, he would freedive down and hand set it. Never drug, never lost any sleep.

Use what works and disregard the hype - maybe skip the next boat show.
__________________
Cheers! Jan

http://commutercruiser.com
sv Winterlude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 05:40   #100
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Atlantic ICW 29N/81W
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 36CC, now sold
Posts: 822
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Which anchor.. and how expensive are you seeking to justify..
Maybe it is one of those new Armchair Paranoids mk2?
Robin3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 05:44   #101
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Akron, Ohio
Boat: Bristol 29(1967)
Posts: 623
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

2000 pounds of anything metal on the piddly little, non-reinforced thingys for a metal shackle to attach to a big anchor with a 1" wide, 1/4" or so thick, 1-2' long shaft, of which, said hole thingy removed probably 75 or so percent of the shaft's strength ... bothers and scares me.

Why are there absolutely NO(?),anchors that appear to have more "beef", where the 20,000 pound boat eventually attaches to the 30-50 pound anchor, in that little hole thingy, while exerting 2,000 pounds of pull?

I want an anchor, which will not stay on the bed of the ocean while I recover the shackle ... and why are there no anchors, such as Bruce, or Delta or a plow
that isn't made to retrofit something like a 3-4 pound attachment that can greatly improve holding power in situations the the main anchor doesn't set so well in? A small "extra", piece of metal, here or there can have a dramatic effect on holding, and can be easily removed when unneeded or unwanted.

But ... that shackle hole thingy ... just looks really wimpy to me ...
SURV69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 06:03   #102
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 43
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Back in the day , cruising the Caribbean for three years all I used was a slightly oversize Bruce on my 33 footer.
Had a nice big oversize CQR when we started the voyage from Europe, newer got it to hold when the wind piked up, the last time I used it, dragged until it snagged some underwater cables in Helgoland, had to let it go chain and all as it was getting crowded due to the wind, five abreast and anchorage full, no time to play around.

Once used a 7.5 Kg Bruce from the dingy on a delivery of a old 80 foot fishing boat that had a hiccup in the fuel system of the old air start SKL engine, just to hold it for an hour to fix, the small ship had big old anchors at the bow but they were all hand crank as someone had sold the 3 phase electric motor for scrap. Man the Bruce dug in deep.
On The Water is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 06:15   #103
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Akron, Ohio
Boat: Bristol 29(1967)
Posts: 623
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

I've always heard the Bruce is good ... maybe not great ... But! that the Bruce sets fast and if it releases, that it resets fast.

I have a 22 pound Bruce on my Bristol 29 and I think I'd be happier with a 40 pounder or so.
SURV69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 06:22   #104
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 42' Sportfish
Posts: 3,208
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The Fortress has a reputation for popping out in wind or tide shifts and failing to reset.
Do we think that's a real (true) factoid? Or just anecdotal "lore" from somebody's brother-in-law's friend's cousin who once owned a sailboat?

We haven't anchored as often as many here... but still, we've been on the hook lots and lots and lots o' times... and when we used the Fortress, in tidal waters and with wind changes... we've never come unstuck.

In fact, I've seen no evidence it ever even unset and then reset. Always seems to be right where it started and in the same attitude as original.

If it HAS actually happened to real people... (How many here, first-hand, no kidding it happened to you?)

Is that because Fortress (or Danforth style) anchors really do that? Or is because it wasn't set properly in the first place? Or because the size was mis-matched with the boat? Or because the substrate was maybe covered with rocks or grass or something?

-Chris
__________________
Selby Bay, South River, Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 06:29   #105
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The boat: Cowes (Winter), Above 60N (Summer); me: somewhere in the air!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 21,533
Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
Do we think that's a real (true) factoid? Or just anecdotal "lore" from somebody's brother-in-law's friend's cousin who once owned a sailboat?
It's certainly not just somebody's brother in law etc. It is the firm belief of practically the whole community of cruisers, and for decades by now.


But as I said, I don't know whether it's really true or not. I've anchored overnight with the Fortress in a changing current, and didn't have any problems. Which of course doesn't prove anything by itself, but it's one data point.

I am agnostic -- and curious -- on this question.


I can well imagine that the idea was formed based on the behavior of the similar looking Danforth anchors. The kedge on my first cruising boat was a genuine Danforth, and for some reason, although it look very similar to the Fortress, it was far less reliable.

I'm not saying that this is the case, but it could be.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor, cqr, delta

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: 14 lbs & 22 lbs Delta Anchors (Southern California) AmericanVagrant Classifieds Archive 2 22-03-2016 14:01
For Sale: Lewmar Delta Fast Set Galvanized Anchor 44 LBS georgec Classifieds Archive 0 30-09-2013 18:32
Anchors - Bruce and CQR sloopygirl Classifieds Archive 0 08-05-2013 13:20
I Guess Drouge Chutes-sea Anchors Are Obsolete greyhound37 Cruising News & Events 22 29-11-2012 13:07
For Trade: 45 lbs CQR for 60 lbs Danforth Daniela Tartau Classifieds Archive 0 08-09-2010 15:29



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:01.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.