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Old 01-04-2016, 09:47   #16
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

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Originally Posted by Hoosiersailor View Post
Do they work for you in the places you anchor?
That's the key question right there. If your anchor holds your boat, you can't trade for a "better" one.
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:35   #17
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

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Originally Posted by ZipTie View Post
That only leaves the OP with a BRUCE.
I will not comment on that one......................................

OK, I can't help myself.
If I had the BRUCE I would move back on land.
OK, that's a pretty stupid post but reading your previous post about farming, it's understandable.

As I posted above, if your anchor works for you, that's all you need. I have a claw anchor and it works for me.
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:39   #18
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

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Originally Posted by ErikFinn View Post
Dear folks,


I had my anchors galvanized and got interested in the anchor topic. Spent the last few days reading this and that about anchors and a creeping feeling that my anchors are obsolete has started to bother me.

I would really like a Rocna 33kg but I can't afford it now... Then I learned how Rocna has bashed other manufacturers and saw a few videos by Rocna on Youtube about other anchors just dragging on their sides on the beach and never setting... sigh.

I didn't want to post this to get comments about Rocna, Manson Supreme, Bugel Wasi or the likes, but rather about my current anchors.
Are they truly so bad as what I seem to have read and viewed during the last few days??

I know the new generation ones are good (especially with fast setting), so please don't repeat that to me.. Rather I'm wondering if I have fallen pray to marketing propaganda and if I can I still survive at all with my old gear? Are they ok or garbage?

Yes, if I was feeling rich I would get a new Rocna or similar. (There are many other threads about Rocna, Manson Supreme, Bugel/Wasi etc, I dont mean to add yet anofher one, please...)

What I would be happy is if I could regain the confidence to my gear. They are all original genuine stuff. My genuine CQR 60 Lbs appears to be about 2 sizes oversized for my boat. Same with my qenuine Delta 55 Lbs/25kg. My qenuine Bruce 20 kg appears to be "neutral" (undersized in my books... )
I kept repeating "genuine" because apparently some copies do not perform as well as genuine originals. Or so I have heard. But then again I have seen tests and reviews bashing the good old CQR and others, so I don't know what to believe anymore. What I did notice is that the 60Lbs CQR retails at about close fo 1K USD. Not cheap in my books. But yes, not a measure of performance either? (does "you get what you pay for" apply here? lol)

Boat is a 1989 Beneteau Oceanis 430 (43feet), empty weight about 20'000 pounds/9000kg, add some for accumulated gear n stuff..

Ideally I would like to feel confident about long term anchoring in Thailand and Malaysia waters, on mud and sand bottoms, with tide changes and a tropical thunderstorm passing by. So, what say you? Thou shall I must have a new anchor?? Or am I just fine..? (or don't leave the marina? lol)

Cheers.
Hi Erik,

If you have had mostly positive experiences with your current anchors then you likely have some confidence in them. But, it you have had some bad experiences... then your research has revealed that some of the more recent designs have advantages over some of the older designs. [You didn't mention Danforth, but that is a WWII design which is still highly regarded and very effective- within limits...]

In past decades I had no issues using a [slightly oversized] genuine CQR as my main bower on a different vessel [37ft; 27k lbs] covering most of the Pacific circle. [With HT Danforth anchors as back-ups and kedges.]

I have no personal experience with a Delta, and have various cruising friends I hold in high regard that all say their oversized [e.g., 100+ lbs] genuine Bruce anchors are very reliable.

It seems that with most anchors holding performance improves exponentially as weight increases.

Some additional details about the genuine CQR:

Last summer I met up with some old cruising friends who cover 10-20k miles/year all through the Pacific [Antarctica to Japan to Alaska] in their 60ft steel sailboat and have fared well since the mid-90s with their genuine CQR.

During our visit, they shared an experience from fall 2015 of almost loosing their boat. They had anchored in a bay they have used before in the Strait of Magellan after a ~3 week passage, and a predicted storm blew harder than usual, causing them to abandon the dragging CQR anchor in the middle of the night and head back out to sea... Upon returning a few days later they were fortunate enough to recover the buoyed chain and anchor and continue on- but with the plan to finally upgrade their trusty CQR. [They were planning on a SPADE but ended up with a Rocna...]

My point is the CQR served them well in their full time cruising [over 300k miles...] for 20+ years before having a critical failure; but it only takes once...

My current boat [43 ft; 44k lbs cruising weight...] also came with a 60lb genuine CQR which the previous owner had to upgrade after some poor holding experiences in the shallow sand anchorages of the Caribbean [this in their 3rd of 15 seasons there full time...] It is still on the boat and I currently have it rigged as a ready to deploy second [back-up] anchor on the bow. [For reference (and not necessarily recommendation) here is our ground tackle inventory.]

In summary, thousands of cruisers [me included] have had great success using a genuine CQR over the past few decades, anchoring thousands of times each.

You will likely find similar accounts given for a properly sized Delta [and many others anchor types...]

And older vehicles without antilock brake systems are still safe and able to stop the vehicle; but not as efficiently [and independent of the driver's skills] as today's brake systems.

As personal experiences, test results, photos, and videos of anchors setting [all of which you can find on this forum] demonstrate, some anchor designs have many advantages over the anchors discussed here, and may represent a worthwhile upgrade should your personal circumstances warrant...

In hopes this is helpful...

Cheers!

Bill
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Old 01-04-2016, 11:27   #19
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

I cruised for years with a genuine CQR. 99.?? % of the time it was fine and held like it was glued to the bottom. But it did drag a couple of times and a couple of times I was not able to get it to set.

So are the old anchors obsolete. No! Are the new anchors better? Yes!!!

I think we would all agree that anchors are very critical safety equipment for a cruiser, maybe even life support equipment. Further I think the great majority of us will agree that a new generation anchor (pick your poison) is better.

If you're seriously cruising then you will be using the anchor often. So is this a piece of gear where you're willing to settle for something that isn't the best available?
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Old 01-04-2016, 11:35   #20
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

If the CQR is working, its' working!

Besides no one will steal it.


I just wanted to join in with the obvious.
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Old 01-04-2016, 12:36   #21
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Anchored with a 45# CQR on our 20,000# boat 24/7 for over a year including 50mph winds without any problems. CQR's work fine if they are large enough for the boat's displacement and are set properly. Oh wait, that's the case with any anchor. Wouldn't rush to change the anchors though the Bruce is too small for my liking.

Having said that, sold the CQR 35 that came with my 13,000# boat and replaced it with a similar sized Manson Supreme. That was partly motivated by the condition of the CQR and getting a deal on the Manson.
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Old 01-04-2016, 13:02   #22
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

I've used all of your anchors so not speaking from the armchair.

Scrap the CQR.

Keep using whichever of the other two you prefer.

The Delta is a decent anchor but provided it's not bent anywhere. If you're happy with it then no rush to buy a different one. Do it sometime when you have a bit of extra money.

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Old 01-04-2016, 13:23   #23
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

A few thoughts -

I'm a lot like an old anchor. I started out shiny, new and exciting. But as time got along my faults became obvious. My Wife, bless her heart, still loves me and "forgets" my faults. Just as so many do with their XXX anchor.

Old anchor designs do not work any better today then they did the first time they were tried. Sure we change materials etc but the design limitations are still there. Would you tie a rock to a line and toss it overboard? An old anchor design that we still use. We call it a mooring and the rock is #1000+ and we use chain.

Lastly, I distribute Mantis anchors thus I have the chance to loan a new mantus to folks. Any of the new generation of anchors (Mantus, Rocna, Mason, spade etc) are significantly better than the earlier anchors in a number of aspects.

In loaning out a new Mantis it often goes like this:

Hi, you want to give this Mantus a try? (hubby) No, I'm very happy with my XXX anchor, never failed me yet. (wife) Well honey, there was that time we had to reset 6 times in Cabo to get it to set and then we drug all over in ... (Real conversation by the way)

So they take the loaner and give it a try.

Next time we meet: Wow that Mantus really grabs the bottom. Just about knocked me down - the boat just STOPPED when it set. I tried to make it drag with a side pull but nothing. It just stayed put.

Too bad it brings up so much muck from the bottom.

Say, haw much are they?

------

I find that the proof of the advantages of modern anchors is easy to see when you use one - specially if you have been anchoring with a CQR.

Regards!
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Old 01-04-2016, 13:46   #24
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Heavier is better--sure and when you get into 100+ or 150+ lb anchors you're into an entirely different class of anchor--in terms of how it sets, period.

The CQR bashing is old btw. If you're sensitive to what other people say/think you may feel better getting a modern anchor otherwise, just figure out if your CQR is right sized for your vessel. Everyone who may or may not have ever used the right size CQR loves to bash the CQR but I've not heard someone with a properly sized CQR bash it. They may have another more favored anchor, sure, but they realize the CQR works great as well.

Many folks have a bad experience with their slightly-too-small-for-their-boat CQR or Delta or whatnot and run screaming to purchase a huge-for-their-boat Rocna or similar modern anchor. Then they say how great their new anchor is -- it just doesn't drag and it sets so much easier than their old anchor. But it wasn't just design they changed, it was size and design. We have a 30T boat and a 105lb CQR that works great for us and sets easily. A friend with a similarly sized boat with similar windage had a 60 lb CQR and 75 lb CQR (don't know if real or copy) that they had to constantly fiddle with carefully setting whichever they chose. Finally they bought a 150lb Rocna--huge! and just love it. Of course they love it. Anyone would love having an anchor oversized for their vessel. We love our 105lb CQR but we'd love a 150lb one even better--of course.

There are three variables: bottom conditions (mud, rock, etc), size (weight), and anchor design but yet we find ourselves constantly asking the design question without touching the other two. The OP has luckily gotten a few folks replying to all the variables not just the design question. I'm not familiar with anyone else's boat, can only speak to my own. On my boat I have a 105lb CQR that is the main anchor. We carry a second bow anchor of 125lb Delta but have only used it about 10 times when deploying 2 bow anchors. We carry a 95lb Danforth that we've used 3 times as stern anchor. Also a 37lb (FX55) Fortress that we've used a half dozen times as a stern anchor. We have a 120lb fisherman anchor with folding cross stock that we used once for grins and probably would use again if we were in rubble, sea grass, hard crusted sand. We also have a tiny 30lb folding stock Northill that we really should sell because it's no good on this boat but yet the Northill is a great anchor. We see alot of PNW and AK fishing boats with large permanent stock ones as primary anchor. Of all our anchors we only purchased the Fortress and that one because we wanted a stern anchor less than about 100lb so I could have some hope of setting it or using it as a kedge rather than my husband doing so. If we didn't have all these, I have no idea what we'd buy--probably something 150lbs

Recently I read something about how the arguments about the old anchors vs the new come down to the fact the new ones are designed to work reliably in a wide range of conditions but they will under perform the best of old style ones when used in each of the more challenging conditions the old style works best in. I mean each of the old ones have their strong point (e.g. look at the flukes on a traditional old-style fisherman anchor (aka Luke, or Herreshoff pattern anchors) and you can see why they do so well with rocky bottoms or seagrass or kelp--digging in and catching onto a craggy bit and holding. Similarly, Danforths (or newer Fortress) with their amazing area (for weight) that does very nicely in fluffy mud. I'm no anchor expert and happen to think the best anchor for me (or you) is the one that I (or you) can set reliably in the particular conditions we are facing.
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Old 01-04-2016, 14:16   #25
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Actually, I've not seen that a CQR, as long as it's axle and hole are not worn, is unreliable. Friends with one had to have that join rebuilt, but then the anchor re-attained its proper angle of attack, and has given no trouble since in the ensuing 3 years. I think that's the only weak spot with that anchor, and that particular one had been used more or less daily for about 12 yrs. before it needed repair. There is a reason people stand by their genuine CQR's and it is because they've figured out how to set them securely, and trust them.

Now, if your particular CQR has begun to quit holding in your usage, that is a different issue: it may need repair or replace, your choice. The new generation anchors are desirable, but if the others are working well for you, and you've trusted them in the past for the conditions you anticipate, why change? Ann's maxim: never give complete trust to advertising claims. Trust other yachties' experience, bearing in mind their analytical capacity varies. Then make up your own mind. Trust the "Pictures of Anchors Setting", it's data, with what I thought was pretty unbiased commentary. I think, but do not know for certain, that the CQR failures he documented had to do with their having difficulty in that type of bottom, and possibly were worn.

Look at Panope's thread and at Noelex's thread. In some ways, I think the still pictures he and his mermaid have provided are the most instructive about anchors and anchoring I have found, and crystallized my thinking about Delta's at least for European conditions. While I wouldn't have one, there are people who like theirs.

Ah, the Bruce, we've used them, had one genuine, 44lb., one oversized claw. Sold both. The writer above, I think it was wrwakefield, wrote that once the anchor drags, you lose faith in it, certainly was true for me. The Bruce, which had been holding, turned loose suddenly, and we arrived back at the boat to find it thumping on the bottom, not a happy moment.

Now using our second 22k. Manson Supreme, which has worked well for us. This boat displaces about 11 tonnes. Our spare anchor is a 45# Manson plow, and our kedge is an old 20# high tensile Danforth. And, fwiw, the Danforth is easier to store than a Fortress of that weight!

Used anchors sometimes come up on ebay, maybe you can find something satisfactory to you there.....

Ann
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Old 01-04-2016, 14:51   #26
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

I should have mentioned that my CQR had some wear in the hinge when we could not get it to set.
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Old 01-04-2016, 15:31   #27
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

The fx55 fortress at 37lb is exactly the same size as our 95lb danforth. Both are anchors reliant upon size first for holding and weight is the secondary helper. Come to think of it we once set the steel at the bow and aluminum at the stern -- in light fluffy mud and a crowded anchorage--no real winds so it wasn't any challenge. Rather we just wanted the experience setting the bulky thing off our bow.

We have to set stern anchors typically by dinghy and the lightweight fortress really shines then.


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Old 01-04-2016, 15:41   #28
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

I am not a big fan of the CQR, but if it is properly sized and you have plenty of rode, pref. chain, and it is properly set, I would not lose a minute's sleep over it. I am assuming the Bruce is a stern or kedge for your boat? If not, I think it is too small. Good anchor though. Dragging is usually more a matter of 1. enough rode is out (scope,) 2. anchor is correct size and 3. holding ground is good 4. anchor is set properly... not so much brand of anchor, unless it is a copy or a cheapo.
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:23   #29
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

Hello,
See SV Panope anchor review series on UTube,

Very educational.
Steve
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:41   #30
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Re: Are my anchors obsolete? CQR 60 Lbs, Delta 55 Lbs, Bruce 20 kg

If you throw the CQR overboard without it being attached to the boat it will still drag.
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