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Old 02-08-2007, 14:35   #1
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ANCHORS DRAGGING!

Over the last couple of years or so there has been a shift in thinking regarding what anchors are the best. The Rocna (or other similar designs i.e Bugel) anchor and Spade anchor have caused the most comotion and have had the biggest impact on moving many to believe that these could be the best anchors on the market. They are often referred to by the manufacturers as the "New Generation of Anchors" There have been several anchor tests performed by magazinses such as Sail and Practical Sailor to support these anchors as possibly being the best.

It was not too many years ago when many thought that the CQR was one of the best and it resulted in 1000s of sailers buying one. Now, following published tests the poor CQR has been bastardized to an anchor that one should stay way from at all costs due to ints inability to set and re-set.

Then of course there is the long proven Fortress Anchor that many believe to be one of the best anchors to have on board a boat, although typically as a back up or storm anchor. The Fortress is often compared to the "New Generation" anchors and performs at the very top of all the anchor tests.


We have heard many testimonials on how great the Rocna, Spade and Fortress are, so I thought it would be nice to start a thread where people only reported incidents when one of these three anchors failed to perform well. Has anyone had A Rocna, Spade, or Fortress DRAG? If so under what circumstances did it drag, i.e. wind, wave conditions, scope displacement and type of rode? Has anyone had trouble setting or re-setting these anchors? If so what type of bottom, scope etc. when this occured?

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Old 02-08-2007, 17:16   #2
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Well, I just so happened to have had experience with such, last week. We chartered a Lagoon 380 with a Rocna 20. The Rocna performed great and set the first time in all conditions and did not drag a bit -- even when the winds got up to 20+ while in Deep Harbor. This was in the northern Gulf Islands, east of Vancouver Island. However, we did have problems getting it to set in Fulford Harbour, which has a soft muddy bottom. (Fair number of reports from others saying the same, by the way.) Took us four tries, moving around a bit, before it set. No drag during the night, although the waters and wind were calm, so there was little stress on it. We used a 4:1 to 5:1 scope with the Rocna and had 150' of chain.

This was my first experience with a Rocna and I must say I liked it, a lot. (And, I was prepared to be skeptical.) With the above exception, the anchor set quickly and firmly, on the first try. When it was time to move on, we had no problem getting it to break free, either.

Having said that, though, I would still never go out without two other anchors, of different types. This boat had both a CQR and a Danforth, too.

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Old 02-08-2007, 17:44   #3
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Fortress fun

I already documented my workout with a Fortress in another thread.

Delta vs CQR, sizing, etc.

Haven't tried a Rocna or spade.
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Old 02-08-2007, 21:24   #4
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I have a Super Max 12 for my boat and have been very happey with so far. Just have to remeber to put a short enough scope.
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Old 06-08-2007, 12:50   #5
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Just put a Manson Supreme on the bow only to find it would not self stow, would not self launch, and had insufficient clearance when I did get it stowed for the roller furler to function (not the anchor's fault there, I should have measured better before I bought it).
Going to make a mock-up of the Rocna shank to see if it fits beneath the roller furler. If so then will try Rocna to see if it stows and launches any better from our bow.

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Old 06-08-2007, 13:42   #6
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Yes..

Yes I have had issues with one of the new generation anchors an aluminum Spade. It is very difficult to set and there have been other reports of difficult setting of the aluminum Spades. My thinking is that the aluminum at 14 pounds is far to light to penetrate a hard bottom!

I will say that I also own the same Spade anchor in steel an S-80 and it sets far better than the A-80 and far better than my CQR or my Bruce.

I actually own the following list of anchors and the Rocna is far and away the finest multi-purpose anchor I have ever used with the Manson Supreme a close second and a steel Spade a not so close third. Of my list of anchors the CQR's are by far the least reliable. The Fortress is a great directional anchor only but it's re-setability for me has been very poor so it has been relagated to use as a stern anchor.

I have yet to have a properly set "new generation" anchor drag on me including my aluminum Spade it was getting it to set that was the problem. I have however had numerous draggings with my CQR's, Delta and Bruce anchors. IMHO the Bruce is the best setter and overall performer of the old school lot with the Delta a close second.

Surface area is what counts and per pound of anchor the Rocna and Manson Supreme offer far more surface area than weighted tip anchors. Below is a photo I took of my 24lb Manson Supreme compared to a 35 Lb. Spade and a 25 Lb. CQR and you can see that a 24Lb Manson has more surface area that a 25 Lb CQR and the equivalent surface area of a 35 Lb Spade.

CQR 25 Lb.
CQR 35 Lb.
Spade A-80
Spade S-80 (35Lb.)
Fortress FX-16
Delta Fast Set 35 Lb.
Bruce 33 Lb.
Rocna 35 Lb.
Manson Supreme 24 Lb.


Photo: 25 Lb. CQR, 24 Lb. Manson Supreme, 35 Lb. Spade

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Old 06-08-2007, 14:01   #7
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Acoustic

Thanks for the comparison of the effectiveness of these anchors. Do you find any difference in how well the anchors work on your bow?? Any which stow and deploy better than the others?? How much less clearance (if there is any difference) does the Rocna need than the Manson Supreme from deck top to roller furler base (if that is an issue for you). Your advice in this area would be most helpful

John
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Old 06-08-2007, 17:29   #8
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Does this help??

Here's a picture of my Rocna in a roller designed for a CQR and even the pin fits through the hole in the Rocna. My Harken furler is very low and I have no problem with clearnace..

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Old 06-08-2007, 18:52   #9
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When you talk about setting anchors were you trying to set with all the same scope? What was it?

As an aside I'm wondering if the "newer" generation anchors are deisgned for 5 / 1 scope and the older generations were 7 / 1.
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Old 06-08-2007, 19:42   #10
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I set all my anchors on...

I set all my anchors on a minimum of 7:1 or greater later shortening to 5:1 or what ever I can swing in a particualr anchorage. I always go for an initial set then gradually increase reverse throttle to 80% of max to truly set the anchor. The Rocna is the only anchor I have sucessfully set repeatedly at less than a 3:1 but I did that just to see what it will do and it does! My CQR's on the other hand usually require more than 7:1 to get a solid and proper set. CQR's like to set on their side. A proper set is vertical with the entire anchor burried vertically NOT on it's side.
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Old 06-08-2007, 21:32   #11
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The Super Max needs a 3 to 1 or less with all chain.

Different scopes are needed for chain and rode (rope) as well as rising and falling tides/waves.
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Old 06-08-2007, 21:47   #12
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This is a nonsense about 3:1 scope. The SuperMax may be optimized for it (would be interested to test it against the Rocna at that scope, even though we wouldn't endorse anything much less than 5:1 in shallow water) but that's not to say it will actually work well at such reduced angles.

Simple trigonometry will tell you how much vertical force is being applied to the anchor at such low scope. Apply enough force, and unless the anchor is set in concrete, it will lift out - I don't care what type it is.

There is a further problem which is logically unavoidable, no matter the anchor or seabed. 3:1 is almost impossible to maintain in tidal areas in shallow water. Set it at 3:1 at low tide, and it's reduced to something ridiculous at high tide. Set it at 3:1 at high tide, and then you're contradicting the supposed SuperMax design spec at low tide.
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Old 06-08-2007, 21:55   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkall
As an aside I'm wondering if the "newer" generation anchors are deisgned for 5 / 1 scope and the older generations were 7 / 1.
We design the anchors to work well, period. Most of the important angles are to do with setting; once in, any anchor holds better the lower the angle of pull. As a result of the good setting dynamics and overall high holding of the more modern anchors, particularly the Rocna, you can see that one related benefit is relatively excellent performance at low scope (e.g. Acoustic's testimony above). Steve Dashew regularly uses his Rocna at 2:1. Etc.

But the imperative remains: tune your rode to minimize the angle of pull as much as possible. Usually, in shallow water, that means a good amount of scope.

Read this.

Now people, we're truly off topic eh? Some reports of dragging Rocnas please!
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Old 06-08-2007, 22:59   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsmith

Now people, we're truly off topic eh? Some reports of dragging Rocnas please!
My new Rocna is still sitting in my living room about 4000 miles away from my boat but I did Drag it across the the room earlier.

This post was not meant to sell Rocna's for Craig so someone please tell us about Rocnas Dragging.....!!

Keegan
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Old 07-08-2007, 03:59   #15
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craigsmith -
We have had this discussion before. I can tell you for a fact that the Super Max 12 (18 pounds) holds much better at a 3 to 1 scope. I have a 50 hp and it dos not drag at 4200 RPM's and it will not hold on a 5 to 1 scope.

The anchor is designed to dig down to hold vers being pulled.
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