Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-08-2014, 18:16   #61
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Baltimore, MD / Albany, NY
Boat: Alberg 35
Posts: 225
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

thanks for the suggestion of Drag Queen, I hadn't heard of that and now it's installed. Glad the story had a happy ending!
__________________

Pendragon35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2014, 18:35   #62
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ohio
Boat: Now boatless :-(
Posts: 11,572
Images: 4
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

For those using a phone or tablet for anchor alarms make sure you have a power source. With the gps running full time you may use up that battery pretty quick. I know I did.
__________________

__________________
Relax Lah! is SOLD! <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2014, 18:44   #63
Registered User
 
Prairie Chicken's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada or Spain
Boat: Jeanneau SO 43 DS
Posts: 1,141
Images: 1
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

Quote:
good guardian angels trump any modern anchor, old time ones as well.
Zeehag posts an important point to remember.

Some following Noelex's thread could be lulled into thinking good technique & the right kit will keep you safe--it isn't the case. Do everything right ... but sleep lightly & hope your guardian angels are awake.
__________________
Prairie Chicken
><((((>`..`..`...><((((>.
`..`..`...><((((>`..`..` ...><((((>
Prairie Chicken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 01:27   #64
Registered User
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,608
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuss View Post
Firstly, full marks for your honesty, all too often on these forums the facts get distorted in the telling.
However that's the only compliment I'm giving.

You say above the first spot was most likely rock and poor holding. So my question to you is... why did you not discover the poor holding during the day when you set your anchor?
To better illustrate the problem, I've attached these to photos from yesterday when we anchored in a cove 16 miles away from where we dragged two weeks ago. The first is of the weedball we pulled up twice from the first anchorage we eventually abandoned due to poor holding. The second is from the anchorage 3 miles away where we found good holding. As you can see... it's impossible to know what's below the weeds and grass. The anchor set in the second shot is one meter below the grass. The yellow float which can be seen is on a one meter cable attached to the top of the Ultra anchor.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20140817_173152.jpg
Views:	145
Size:	417.7 KB
ID:	86754   Click image for larger version

Name:	GOPR0116.jpg
Views:	159
Size:	413.0 KB
ID:	86755  

Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 06:22   #65
Registered User

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 613
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

Ok, so its now been a few days since this happened and you nearly lost your very expensive investment.

Many people have written their thoughts, gardian angels, luck, anchor alarms, bigger anchor, two anchors, wrong anchor etc.

All a load of rubbish in my opinion.

One person TerraNova asked why only 1800rpm, you chose not to answer him.

You later posted that after dragging you re-anchored and this time used full throttle astern and then in 30kts all was fine over the next 24 hours.

Does this mean that now you will stop using 1800-2000rpm and use full throttle from now on?

I am the person who previously asked you to use at least 75% power when anchoring.

I also started the thread titled... You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

I wrote this in response to the thread titled Photos of Anchors Setting. While this is an interesting thread , it clearly does not get the point across that you have to pull your anchor in properly as part of a decend anchoring procedure.

I hope that from now on you stop using 1800-2000rpm and pull the thing in properly. Use at least 2800rpm.

If you had used full throttle in the other anchorage you mentioned where you and the other 20 boats all dragged (amazing...you all dragged!), then you would not have. It didn't blow that hard there did it.

Dragging is clearly not an isolated incident for you is it.

I wouldn't stand an anchor watch until the wind is constant over 30-35.

The reason for that is that I make sure the anchor is in and holding like the other 10% of the people who know how to anchor.

You can take this post as you like... me wanting to be a smart A..e or someone who cares and does not want to see yours or other boats on the rocks.
Fuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 07:09   #66
Not Politically Correct
 
ontherocks83's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Boat: Checkmate Strobe 201, 1969 Potter 15
Posts: 1,758
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuss View Post
If you had used full throttle in the other anchorage you mentioned where you and the other 20 boats all dragged (amazing...you all dragged!), then you would not have. .
There is absolutely no way you can possibly know that. So what if he had gone full throttle and still dragged what would you say then? If anchoring were an exact science then there would be no more anchor threads or discussions about it.

I'll stand with someone that can have a little humility about the issue and know they are fallible and to be more careful next time. Rather then someone that "knows" everything
__________________
-Si Vis Pacem Parabellum
-Molon Labe
ontherocks83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 07:19   #67
Registered User
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,608
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

Fuss,

With all do respect, you seem to have some issues. When I say we reversed using 2000 revs, on our boat that is over 85% full throttle. 2100 is full throttle while being held by anchor or stationary while attached to a dock. Our turbo diesel Yanmar engine combined with a Maxprop feathering prop cannot rev above that to over 3000 without moving through the water... too much resistance. Go try it some time, attempt to gradually increase the revs on your engine to maximum while your boat is held firm and in gear.... it can't be done with our Maxprop feathering prop due to it's ability to generate a reverse pull nearly equal to forward thrust. One might be able to rev to 3000 using a standard prop... but I've never used a standard prop, so I don't know.

Get out and do some actual anchoring instead of theorizing behind your computer. When we pulled up the anchor pictured earlier today, we discovered that it was buried at least 5ft deep into sand. 3.5ft through grass & mud then 2ft into sand. The yellow ball is on 5ft of cable and only the top of it was showing. Regarding your other comments... I think you need to work on your English reading comprehension, you got the meaning of what I wrote all messed up and bass-ackwards.

I started this anchor drag thread so that others could learn from our experience. You don't seem to be catching on.

Ken
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 07:19   #68
Registered User

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 613
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
There is absolutely no way you can possibly know that. So what if he had gone full throttle and still dragged what would you say then? If anchoring were an exact science then there would be no more anchor threads or discussions about it.

I'll stand with someone that can have a little humility about the issue and know they are fallible and to be more careful next time. Rather then someone that "knows" everything
ontherocks83, if I write it nice no-one takes any notice, look at other politically correct threads that don't get the point across.

Its a very serious thing when your boat drags. Dragging should be a very seldom event. He has dragged twice in 3 weeks. He has a fear of weed and he has a fear of using his engines power to set his anchor. I also suspect that he is not using the correct scope even though he says he does.

Put out some more chain, he has 300ft of half inch
Anchor in deeper water
There is absolutely no need for all 20 boats to drag in those conditions.
Fuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 07:32   #69
Registered User
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,608
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuss View Post
If you had used full throttle in the other anchorage you mentioned where you and the other 20 boats all dragged (amazing...you all dragged!), then you would not have. It didn't blow that hard there did it.
We did reverse throttle at 2100 which IS full throttle (see above). The anchor dragged following a 90 degree wind shift and increased wind speed from 0 wind up to 25 knots sustained. A dramatic change which caused everyone's anchor to drag in weed. (see above, reading comprehension) The high winds were not in the weather forecast... no one was expecting them. I we had been expecting the higher winds, it's highly probable that none of the 20 boats would have chosen that particular anchorage.

Stuff happens...

Ken
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 07:34   #70
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Boat: Bestevaer.
Posts: 11,407
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

Fuss, perhaps it would be helpful to the forum if you gave us an analysis of when you have dragged and what went wrong.
noelex 77 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 08:18   #71
Registered User

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 613
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Fuss, perhaps it would be helpful to the forum if you gave us an analysis of when you have dragged and what went wrong.
Sure...

I haven't time to tell you all of them....

Once I anchored with a 34k anchor in 11m of water and I put out 45m of chain.
The distance to the bow roller from the water was 2m and the distance from water to transducer was 1m making a total distance of 14m.

I was in a bit of a hurry and as I had not dragged for a while maybe explains why I did this scope mistake! It was blowing 20kts.
I pulled it back at 1400rpm for about 20secs and all seemed fine.
Full power is 2400 through a 19" fixed bladed prop.

Then I went ashore and came back (luckily) at 8, just before dark.
It went dark and strengthened slightly to 25kts and we started dragging.
Unbelievable and it didn't stop...surely it will catch on something I thought as it dragged parallel to the beach. After dragging about 100m I pulled the anchor motored back and put out 80m and gave it a pull at 2000 for 2 minutes. All ok for the night then.
Lesson learned, Use the right scope and pull it in properly

Another time I anchored in 6m with 80m out in 45+ kts with 34k anchor and held fine. The next day it was still 45kts so, before leaving, I pulled it to see how much reserve it had. It dragged with 1000rpm. So that was a lesson and I upped the size as 34k is too small for a 27 ton boat.
Lesson learned, anchor was on the limit, get a bigger one. So I did.

I've dragged lots of times in the past, but I do not drag any more because I ensure that it is in during the day and every time in the past that I dragged I gave it a very hard analysis and always changed something.
Bad luck does not just happen!.

I do my best to only drag when setting the anchor, not after.

If I am in anyway unsure when finished anchoring, I do it again.
If I feel that I don't care if it blows 45kts+ then I have done it right.

My investment hangs on some chain, some rope, a shackle, and anchor and a technique ....., I can't afford to do it wrong.

Only when the bow twitches and drops are you truely anchored. You get a feel for it after a while. You don't need to dive on it.
If you don't quite know what I mean by that then there is a chance that your anchoring needs some more improvements.
Fuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 09:00   #72
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Boat: Bestevaer.
Posts: 11,407
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

Thanks Fuss. That was much more helpful.

My only comment would be that like aircraft crashes, crew attitude is critical in boat disasters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuss View Post
I've dragged lots of times in the past, but I do not drag any more
A better mindset might be more along the lines of "I've dragged lots of times in the past and it likely to happen again"

No matter what equipment and techniques are used, anchoring is not infallible. Recognising the possibility of failure is an important part of a healthy anchoring strategy.
noelex 77 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 09:07   #73
Registered User
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,608
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

Fuss,

On our boat, we do exactly the same procedure as you do on yours. An oversize anchor, plenty of scope, 1/2 inch chain, anchor further out, multiple tries if unsuccessful or doubts... read my posts. No difference... nada, except for maybe the different composition of the bottom surface we've encountered lately, weed, grass and rock... not easy stuff like sand or mud. Many times, the solid rock is covered up by grass & weed with a shallow layer of black goo on top. Have you ever anchored in this stuff here on Sardinia? Not just once but for months on end? Changing anchorages every day? Winds 30-40 knots at times?

I think you read my post on another thread from maybe 6 weeks ago, where we anchored one day on Mallorca, reversed at full throttle then spent the entire day on the boat enjoying the sun and 15-20 knot winds. Late in the afternoon I dove on the anchor to check before dinner to find it... laying on it's side on top of a large flat rock, not set in any way. It probably snagged some of the rough surface of the rock while I was setting it giving me the false impression that it set properly... who knows? We never dragged, but we could have if I left it that way. We take every precaution including diving on the anchor.... and now we also set an anchor alarm.

Stuff happens.

Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

Ken
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 09:10   #74
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,648
Images: 3
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Here's a couple of pictures to help put things into perspective. The first one is of the shoreline with the rocks taken from where we anchored the second time, we ended up in between them. The second picture is of our Ipad chartplotter showing where we first anchored (bottom set of tracking lines). We drifted directly east (to the right) into the small crescent shaped area with the rocks. The second set of tracking lines at the top are from where we anchored the second time closer to the "A" in the word anchorage).

Our boat draws 2.3 meters, the chart scale is in meters. No pictures were taken during the actual event for obvious reasons and the Ipad was turned off at night, so no track lines showing where we drifted.
very unusual to drag "uphill" , strange one, the anchor must have been fouled.
dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 09:31   #75
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,648
Images: 3
Re: Anchors are a Drag... Waking Up On a Beach in Our Boat

I have to say , Fuss, that I cannot agree with you. On a small yacht full power reverse is not in itself a sure way to ensure you are correctly anchored. In the med, there is often a considerable tough grass on the bottom, you can feel fully anchored, yet over time the anchor works out of the grass and then skips and jumps across the bottom , usually completely folded with the big clump of grass caught in the flukes.

I cannot add as to why Ken dragged, he didn't dive the anchor, which might have alerted him to what had happened. Its most likely he snagged something like a rock, ( which full power would have deluded him into thinking was OK) , then the boat "worked" its anchor and came loose. I then suspect that the anchor picked up grass and then fouled, preventing it from setting again.

As he says Sh&t happens.


dave
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Waking Up an Isuzu Pisces Diesel OLDSON Engines and Propulsion Systems 11 23-12-2013 17:41
For Sale: Anchors , Anchors and More Anchors MermaidLil Classifieds Archive 11 19-01-2012 09:28
Are There Only Two Anchor Drag Alarm Apps Available for the iPad ? endoftheroad Navigation 23 20-12-2010 08:06
does anyone notice more drag with hard v-hull over plywood floored inflatables? endoftheroad Monohull Sailboats 0 18-04-2009 18:42
Reworking a mono for reduced underwater drag? Zach Monohull Sailboats 24 12-05-2008 21:13



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:22.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.