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Old 12-03-2009, 17:58   #16
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RAM I wish I could find and post the map I have seen before showing the historical overlays of all irregular typhoons and how much they have deviated from projected courses to fool everyone.

Today there is real time satellite monitoring to catch every wobble and in our area they have found the value of using the 700mb level as a steering predictor. However, it is still very much a game of weighted interpretation of too many variables for me to assume it is safe to move until it is far far away.

You just have to see how the different weather agency models can differ to confirm that it is still a bit of a guess.

Too many times I have seen them track away, slow down and reform, do a tight curl then roar across the center of the Philippines like a freight train at the cost of so many lives because they thought it had past or posed no danger.
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Old 12-03-2009, 18:13   #17
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I have 40 meters of 10mm chain (3/8ths) and then rope rode.

My second anchor is a completely different type and about 20 meters chain.

It looks like 50 meters of 10mm chain is about $400.

That would give me a total of 90 meters...

That sounds like a better spend of money then trying to buy a 3rd anchor and chain and the swivels to do a 3 anchor job.

?

Agree?

90 meters would be fine in most severe weather wouldnt it?


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Old 12-03-2009, 19:08   #18
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Mark,

We disagree ;-)

First, I would argue that many, dare I say most, cruisers have full chain rodes to start with.

2nd, when you link pieces of chain, the link (shackle?) in between will be weaker than the chain itself in most cases. You need enlarged end-links on both sides of the chain to do that without weakening it (pin from strong enough shackle can't pass through a standard link).

3rd, I would argue that many, dare I say most, cruisers already have three anchors. Some have 6, some have 2.

4th, swivels and shackles are inexpensive. You can buy a 3/4" shackle or swivel for $10 to $20 each depending on where you go shopping. Remember that we don't need shiny Wichard, we need brute strength and size doesn't matter.

5th, I can't talk about your budget but imo money spent on anchoring kit is about the best spent money from a budget... even better than on insurance.

6th, 90 meters fine? what about anchoring in 10 meter deep (at low tide) waters with a 10 meter tide? You would be under 5:1 already and that's not counting the surge of the storm and the waves. It all depends on where you anchor. Our primary rode is 350' chain and secondary is 30' chain + 450' rope. My 3rd rode is 30' chain+100' rope plus whatever I tie onto that.

7th, about the most important but as of yet undisclosed item: what kind and weight of anchor would you put on that 90 meter rode? Remember that the manufacturers recommendation size for your boat will not work. Many recommend based on 30 kts wind, read the small letters under those tables.

Now what we agree: behind one anchor is what I would prefer too but I might change that opinion when the storm is coming for me. We had one anchor during Ivan but were not aboard when it hit. We later had two more coming for us and we opted for spiderweb in mangrove technique. But we have a 176 pound Bruce on a 55,000 pound boat. I dare to state that this combo holds better than a 88 pound Bruce (if that would exist) on a 27,500 pound boat. Bigger anchors work better even when a linear correction for difference in size is applied.

Whatever your method will be: think about it before sailing into areas that have these storms so that you have a plan at hand. I went to some cruiser-organized seminars on hurricane anchoring and visited hundreds of boats by dinghy just before the storm passes or just after. What I found ranged from very well thought out to absolutely clueless or insufficient.

Many people will laugh at you when you talk about big anchors, chain, shackles for ships etc. I know, they laughed about me a lot. But after Ivan, we were 1 of the 4 boats leaving the bay on our own power and there really were 198 boats in that bay. I had interviews with Cruising World etc. (they published it) and everybody wanted to know how it was possible to survive those conditions with hardly a scratch on the boat. The laughing had turned into a frenzy of knowledge gathering.

My latest project that entered THE LIST is a huge attachment point on the bow just above waterline, like from 1" thick stainless steel rod bent 180 degrees for attaching chain for storms or snubber for regular anchoring. People are laughing again when I describe that ;-)

The photo is my preferred way to build a regular snubber, just some bling bling for the thread. See s/v Jedi: tips uit de tropen for our blog entry on this.

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 12-03-2009, 20:07   #19
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We don't disagree at all!

You think I should have a longer bit of chain on my primary!

Now, about the other bit of waiting at home till everything is perfect... sorry but I have already left and I'm not going home so I have to make do with the best I have and the best I can afford. Otherwise I would be like some that I know who have been fitting out for over 10 years!





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Old 13-03-2009, 02:43   #20
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Nick
What is the reason for the small line in the below picture- why not run the snubber direct to the 3 brade?
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Old 13-03-2009, 11:54   #21
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Sorry Nick
Your regular snubber hook will unhook but the shiny Wichard will not.
By the way this one is used as a harness hook, much easier to operate by a ladies hand.
It is difficult to compare a 62 footer with a 37, my displacement variation is of 240kg per cm. I guess yours is far higher so there is a limit to the amount of gear I can carry.
Also I can reach a sheltered creek that could be inaccessible to a larger boat. Even so that in the past I have used successfully anchors in tandem, this requires that the primary rode be of a greater size than the tandem rode, I would use the method described by Pelagic. The main consideration in a narrow creek is more the water run off than the wind and also the amount of boats present. A V pattern as more chance to be entangled by someone elses anchor than two anchors in line distanced from each other. In any case I would try to find a less frequented creek even so that I would be watched by few crocs that will see me as their next meal.
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Old 13-03-2009, 12:09   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chala View Post
Sorry Nick
Your regular snubber hook will unhook but the shiny Wichard will not.
.
Sorry Chala,

Ive been using this type of snubber hook during years of living aboard, and It didnt unhook once!..

About the nice looking shiny "Wichard main de fer ", have a look at its SWL... about half the one of the chain it is used to... and they have been several cases of broken ones..

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Old 14-03-2009, 07:16   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ram View Post
Nick
What is the reason for the small line in the below picture- why not run the snubber direct to the 3 brade?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chala View Post
Sorry Nick
Your regular snubber hook will unhook but the shiny Wichard will not...
Ive never had a standard chain hook come off my snubber either; but would prefer a longer throat as shown on the Wichard hook; or the one thinwater fabricated here: Chain hook for Catamarans...

I also wonder why the snubber line is not directly attached with a braided eye & thimble. The pictured assembly is only approximately as strong as a single wrap of the smaller stuff.
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Old 14-03-2009, 11:58   #24
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Sorry Gord & Nick I also have had the regular snuber come off- once was enough
I think it happened during slack tide and in shallow water where it dragged the bottom- I have a 28 ft bridle -so now I use this I put it thru the link in the chain- its a pain in the ass to get it thru but so far has worked in up to 50 knots of wind for my cat
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Old 14-03-2009, 21:39   #25
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Anchoring threads are even better than breadmaker threads!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ram View Post
Nick
What is the reason for the small line in the below picture- why not run the snubber direct to the 3 brade?
Ram: The small line is 5mm spectra with polyester cover. The 3-strand is 5/8" nylon and doesn't fit through the eye of the hook, simple eh! ;-)

The reason for not using 1/2" is that we broke a 1/2" snubber once. The 5/8" survived many 55 knot squalls so we stick to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chala View Post
Sorry Nick
Your regular snubber hook will unhook but the shiny Wichard will not.
Chala: Our regular snubber hook never unhooks unless the snubber breaks. That happened once as I wrote above but I was lucky that it happened in shallow water and I could retrieve it with an overdue dive into the water of paradise ;-)
There is a very important trick which is also crucial for correct use of any snubber: after you hook the snubber, keep it tight with one hand while using the other hand to pay out more chain until the snubber takes the load. You are not done yet!!! Pay out more chain, at least twice the length of the snubber so that a big loop of chain hangs out there. Now, I the boat comes forward after a gust has passed, the weight of the loop will make sure that the hook doesn't unhook! Also, when the snubber stretches, you need a loop of chain to deal with that. I see many boats with no slack of chain at all and the snubber is basically useless that way. So, about half the snubber length of extra chain is to allow the stretch (absorb shocks) and the other half is for keeping the hook in place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancora Latina View Post
About the nice looking shiny "Wichard main de fer ", have a look at its SWL... about half the one of the chain it is used to... and they have been several cases of broken ones..
Joo: (I had to copy & paste your name to get that "" character ;-) I agree with you but Wichard has also surprised me with huge SWL's for their HD series shackles.... maybe there is a strong enough version for this too? Also, the hook doesn't have to match the SWL of the chain... just the SWL of the rope part of the snubber!

My biggest concern is if that mechanism with the pin will still work after a couple of months at anchor in a nice tropical salty environment!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
I also wonder why the snubber line is not directly attached with a braided eye & thimble. The pictured assembly is only approximately as strong as a single wrap of the smaller stuff.
Gord: the reason is earlier in this post but I can't see the logic that the lashing (I think that is the correct English term for it, or is it lacing?) is only as strong as 1 turn. This is no different than the lashing of a deadeye on shrouds or block and tackle. The rope used for the lashing has a 800 pound breaking strength and we broke a 1/2" nylon line which is rated for 7,500 pounds without any problem with the lashing. I worry more about the tight radius used for both the 5/8" and lashing.
The reason for no thimble is no corrosion. I consider the snubber itself to be the chafing gear and replace the nylon part when it is chafed more than I like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ram View Post
Sorry Gord & Nick I also have had the regular snuber come off- once was enough
I think it happened during slack tide and in shallow water where it dragged the bottom- I have a 28 ft bridle -so now I use this I put it thru the link in the chain- its a pain in the ass to get it thru but so far has worked in up to 50 knots of wind for my cat
Ram: That is not a snubber, that is an genuine anchor-rode! ;-) We always try to keep the snubber above water because of the mess that will grow on it if not. But if weather goes bad, we put it all out: 8 feet of it!
What is your consideration for using a 28' snubber?

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 15-03-2009, 06:28   #26
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Nick
I have a cat with a large beam so- 25' on the snubber seems about right with 2 lines -each 1/2 "line coming from each bow to the chain- it sticks out about half its lenght of the line- as the 2 lines meet in the middle

I have it SS thimbel & shakeled then braded- and OPPs i made a mistake its only 25 feet of snubber it was 28 feet when I started before I braded the line-
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Old 15-03-2009, 09:26   #27
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Data on Wichard 10mm snubber. SWL 720kg. Breaking 2400KG. If it break then it maybe about time to drop another anchor.
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Old 15-03-2009, 09:46   #28
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Data on Wichard 10mm snubber. SWL 720kg. Breaking 2400KG. If it break then it maybe about time to drop another anchor.
Acco BBB 3/8'' chain SWL = 1202 kg

Snubber hook should be at least as strong as the chain..

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Old 15-03-2009, 11:13   #29
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Every assemblage of disparate parts will have a weak link - that part with the least strength.

In an anchor assembly that weak link should occur in the snubber!

Should the snubber fail, the boat will be abruptly brought up on the chain (or rode if using a combination), providing a clear telltale warning that your anchorage is nearing it’s capacity [this will only happen on a cold, rainy night ].

I like LONG snubber lines (mine were 50' & 75'), allowing you to deploy as much (or little) as circumstanes allow/dictate.

I’d also echo Nick’s (s/v Jedi) advice regarding LONG slack chain loops.

FWIW:
I’ve spent 5 months, with a C&C 29 (6500 Lbs dry displ) on a mooring (22 - 25' deep), laying to 5/8" -&- " H.T. chain, with a ” 3-Strand snubber. As a test, I snubbed the snubber with 1/8" or 3/16" flag halyard, fixed to the snubber with a tripple-sliding hitch, and cleated over a couple layers of polyester rag (anti-chafe) - then forgat about it. Three or four months (and about a dozen “blows”) later, I removed the small stuff, noting a little flattening at the portion that wrapped the cleat. The small stuff held us most of the winter. In real life, rope doesn’t break, it chafes!
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Old 15-03-2009, 11:49   #30
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Quote:
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Acco BBB 3/8'' chain SWL = 1202 kg

Snubber hook should be at least as strong as the chain..
You keep saying that without giving the reason. I keep saying it only needs to be as strong as other parts of the snubber, like the nylon line part. My reason for saying that is obvious: the hook is useless after the nylon part of the snubber breaks. I don't see the logic in your statement.

Ah, I have an idea that you write that to keep the load from the windlass at all times? We use a chainstopper for that, as should everyone. (now I did it... ;-0

Gord: never tested my theory, but I think a snubber can be too long. If you have a 60' snubber, it will easily stretch 20' (30%) and that might make the bow swing more sideways off the wind, bringing the boat more beam-to the wind, negating the shock absorbing effect (by replacing it with much more windage) which is imo the primary use of the snubber. I think every boat will have it's own "sweet spot" for snubber length, with snubber diameter being a big parameter too. You want it to stretch 30% before starting to bring the chain taut.

I think a 1/2" nylon snubber is too thick for a 29' 6500 lbs boat. I know it's too thin for our 64' 55,000 lbs boat as it broke (right smack in the middle where there was no chafing). This was during a bad 50-55 kts squall but I want my snubber to survive those (many of these around here...) so I went one size up to 5/8" nylon.

Chala: that hook will break before a 1/2" nylon 3-strand line does if that is what you use for snubber. But from the photo it looks like you are using many small diameter lines instead? Tell us the story ;-)

cheers,
Nick.
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