Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-11-2014, 00:54   #16
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: At sea in the pacific
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 5,084
Images: 1
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

Dockhead, I had the same experience in the Swedish archipelago this past summer. Nothing, i repeat nothing I could do could get my Bruce to hold firm. It was fine up to about 2500 rpm then we moved ever so slowly backwards.

I tried 4 different places in that bay and got the same result. I'm pretty sure it was because the bottom was sheer rock overlaid with some mud. The mud just wasn't deep enough for the anchor to grab.

I normally carry a F-55 for just this type of crap - but I'd left it home. I now know better for next year.
__________________

__________________
I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by

www.svcapri.com
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 02:18   #17
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,340
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
I take it you've seen the Fortress testing results -- here and in the much longer version on trawlerforum -- in soft mud?

-Chris
Hi, no, I haven't seen test results, or don't remember them. But I've been a Fortress owner for many years, and know from my own experience that the Fortress holds really well in soft mud.

I hesitated to throw it out, however, because it's near springs, and I'm anchored in the tidal stream, which reversed in the middle of the night. I've actually never had any Fortress pull out and fail to set on me, but this problem is well enough known, that I wouldn't want to take chances.

Besides that, it's a mess to use in mud, as I have to haul it in by hand. It means stinky mud on my hands and all over the deck.
__________________

Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 02:55   #18
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,340
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

Quote:
Originally Posted by HopCar View Post
My limited experience with anchoring in soft mud has led me to conclude that you want an anchor with as much fluke area as possible.


There are three common types of anchors in favor now, the weighted tip (Spade and Delta), the roll bar (Rocna and Mantus) and the Danforth (Danforth and Fortress).


If you had one of each of these and they all weighed the same (pretend the Fortress was steel) The weighted tip anchor would have the least fluke area because so much of their weight is in the form of ballast in the tip. The roll bar anchors would be next in fluke area. The Danforth style would have the most fluke area.


This is why I think Danforth style anchors do so well in tests in soft mud. It's simple, bigger flukes are harder to pull through the mud.


If I had to anchor in soft mud, and I'd rather not, my first choice would be a Fortress with it's flukes set for mud.


78 deg. F in Miami now. Probably go into the eighties tomorrow.
That's all logical enough, but my smaller (44 kg) Spade definitely works better in soft mud (and everywhere else) than my former larger 55kg Rocna.

I think besides having enough fluke area, an anchor needs to be dense enough to penetrate -- two criteria which might be in conflict with many anchors.

Which begs the question: how does the Fortress penetrate so well, without any weight? It's just aluminum. I really don't know -- maybe it's the particular geometry of the flukes. Very sharp, flat fluke, and nothing else -- just cuts right in like a knife blade. All I know is that my Rocna was harder to set than the Spade -- never budged once set (not once), but in some situations would skip across the surface of the seabed without digging in, especially in soft mud. The Spade cuts in better -- which I guess is from the sharper fluke and lead ballast. But I'm also guessing that differences in geometry probably play a role as well.
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 04:12   #19
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 42' Sportfish
Posts: 3,794
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Hi, no, I haven't seen test results, or don't remember them. But I've been a Fortress owner for many years, and know from my own experience that the Fortress holds really well in soft mud.

I hesitated to throw it out, however, because it's near springs, and I'm anchored in the tidal stream, which reversed in the middle of the night. I've actually never had any Fortress pull out and fail to set on me, but this problem is well enough known, that I wouldn't want to take chances.

Besides that, it's a mess to use in mud, as I have to haul it in by hand. It means stinky mud on my hands and all over the deck.

The two recent threads about the recent testing in soft mud in the Chesapeake, one on each forum, have bazillions of posts...

FWIW, I begin to suspect the well-known problem... isn't one, really. I suspect when a Fortress is well-set -- meaning pretty much buried at least up to the shackle -- it doesn't actually suffer from reversing tides/currents. Just theory, though.

The only time I've had our Fortress maybe fail was when we were only lightly set in a well-protected creek... and a downburst came through and spun the boat in a 360° over the course of about a minute. I assumed (but don't know) that we'd have to reset, but we were so close to our home dock that we just brought it all up an motored home before the main part of the storm arrived.

I do very much know what you mean about stinky mud all over the deck. This around here is stuff where you can get knee deep without even thinking about it. Hence the raw water washdown we installed at the bow, etc. It still takes us 20-30 minutes to bring the anchor/rode all back aboard without making too much of a mess...


Our Fortress is not our main anchor either, though...




Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I think besides having enough fluke area, an anchor needs to be dense enough to penetrate -- two criteria which might be in conflict with many anchors.

Which begs the question: how does the Fortress penetrate so well, without any weight? It's just aluminum. I really don't know -- maybe it's the particular geometry of the flukes. ... But I'm also guessing that differences in geometry probably play a role as well.



If left to its own devices, mass is likely critical to penetration. But with anchors, I'd expect the vector forces applied by some combination of fluke shape/orientation and tension on the rode likely either replace, augment, or mimic mass to a certain extent.


-Chris
__________________
Selby Bay, South River, Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 08:33   #20
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,340
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
The two recent threads about the recent testing in soft mud in the Chesapeake, one on each forum, have bazillions of posts...

FWIW, I begin to suspect the well-known problem... isn't one, really. I suspect when a Fortress is well-set -- meaning pretty much buried at least up to the shackle -- it doesn't actually suffer from reversing tides/currents. Just theory, though.

The only time I've had our Fortress maybe fail was when we were only lightly set in a well-protected creek... and a downburst came through and spun the boat in a 360° over the course of about a minute. I assumed (but don't know) that we'd have to reset, but we were so close to our home dock that we just brought it all up an motored home before the main part of the storm arrived.

I do very much know what you mean about stinky mud all over the deck. This around here is stuff where you can get knee deep without even thinking about it. Hence the raw water washdown we installed at the bow, etc. It still takes us 20-30 minutes to bring the anchor/rode all back aboard without making too much of a mess...


Our Fortress is not our main anchor either, though...


If left to its own devices, mass is likely critical to penetration. But with anchors, I'd expect the vector forces applied by some combination of fluke shape/orientation and tension on the rode likely either replace, augment, or mimic mass to a certain extent.


-Chris
That all sounds quite reasonable to me. Nothing really to add. I also suspect that the Fortress would probably not release once well buried. I've just not been much inclined to test it. Especially since I would be hauling it in by hand. It's easier to use the main bower anchor, about which we have less doubt about releasing anyway.

I bought an (expensive) raw water washdown and have never gotten around to installing it. I really need it for these "muddy" situations; and also it would be a Godsend for keeping the teak decks moistened with salt water. I'll bump it up the winter refit list; thanks for the reminder.
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 08:41   #21
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,340
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

When I pulled the anchor up in the morning, I could immediately see the problem -- I was anchored right in the plume of silt coming from the River Meon. I wasn't able to see that when I came in because it was already dark. Must avoid river mouths in future!

Today was an absolutely gorgeous day -- barometer off the chart; bell clear sky and sunshine. Almost no wind. So I sailed down to Yarmouth on the spring tide. Motorsailing lazily at 4 or 5 knots, but being swept along by 3 and 4 knots of tidal stream. I love days like this! Shame I have no principle headsail - my yankee jib was shredded in a storm in the Baltic in August, and don't have my new sails yet. So I was under main alone and needed to motorsail. I would normally put up all plain sail and just drift along at 3 knots if necessary -- as long as there's enough way on for steerage, you don't care, when the tide is taking you right to your destination.

But as it was motorsailing was also pleasant -- 1200 rpm.

It's going to be cold tonight, but I'm plugged into shore power, so I won't need to burn diesel all night in the Espar. Yarmouth is the most gorgeous little town, just like going back in time (much of the Isle of Wight has that kind of atmosphere). I'm going to finish my work and then walk into to town and have a nice pub dinner sitting next to the fire. Ah, life sucks!
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 08:58   #22
Sponsoring Vendor

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 413
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

Dockhead,

As proven by the Chesapeake Bay tests, the 45° shank / fluke angle of the Fortress will offer a dramatic difference in holding capacity in soft mud, and you are right, once it is buried, retrieval can be difficult and messy.

This was evidenced by the fact that we broke a wire cable at 3,500 lbs (about 1,600 kg) trying to pull out the 21 lb (10 kg) FX-37 while directly above it and pulling at a 1:1 scope. The winch operator calculated that the anchor was buried at least 13 feet (4 m) into the mud, and the thought that this anchor would pull out easier at a normal or shorter scope and with a change of pull direction during a wind or tidal shift is unimaginable.

Fortunately we had a good strong power washer aboard the 81-ft Rachel Carson research vessel which served as the test platform. See images below.


At the end of 4 full days of testing and after all 11 anchors had been tested 5x (the Fortress at both the 32° and 45° angles) for a total of 60 tests, we tested the 10 lb (4.5 kg) FX-16 at the 45° angle, and it held far more than all of the 44-46 lb (20-21 kg) steel anchors....new and old generation anchors alike....and as much as the 35 lb (16 kg) Danforth and the FX-37 at the 32° angle.

Below is an image of this anchor after we were finally able to pull it out. A video from Day 4 is also below, and the segment with the FX-16 is just after the 8:00 minute mark.




This test obviously highlighted the importance of the wider shank / fluke angle for soft mud anchoring, which is no secret to Fortress, as Baldt, Bruce, the US Navy, and Vryhoff all make anchors with this configuration capability for this type of bottom.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Chesapeake Bay Soft Mud.jpg
Views:	111
Size:	428.6 KB
ID:	92267   Click image for larger version

Name:	Chesapeake Bay Soft Mud-2.jpg
Views:	116
Size:	436.4 KB
ID:	92268  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Chesapeake Bay FX-16.jpg
Views:	119
Size:	445.2 KB
ID:	92269  
Fortress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 09:20   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Rio Dulce, Guatemala
Boat: Seafarer36c
Posts: 4,975
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

I added an FX-27 in tandem to our Rocna once. When the chain came tight the Rocna lifted right out of the mud and the chain when tight to the FX-27.
I've seen several people dive on their Fortress to get loose in a soft bottom.
Ecos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 09:42   #24
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,340
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortress View Post
Dockhead,

As proven by the Chesapeake Bay tests, the 45° shank / fluke angle of the Fortress will offer a dramatic difference in holding capacity in soft mud, and you are right, once it is buried, retrieval can be difficult and messy.

This was evidenced by the fact that we broke a wire cable at 3,500 lbs (about 1,600 kg) trying to pull out the 21 lb (10 kg) FX-37 while directly above it and pulling at a 1:1 scope. The winch operator calculated that the anchor was buried at least 13 feet (4 m) into the mud, and the thought that this anchor would pull out easier at a normal or shorter scope and with a change of pull direction during a wind or tidal shift is unimaginable.

Fortunately we had a good strong power washer aboard the 81-ft Rachel Carson research vessel which served as the test platform. See images below.


At the end of 4 full days of testing and after all 11 anchors had been tested 5x (the Fortress at both the 32° and 45° angles) for a total of 60 tests, we tested the 10 lb (4.5 kg) FX-16 at the 45° angle, and it held far more than all of the 44-46 lb (20-21 kg) steel anchors....new and old generation anchors alike....and as much as the 35 lb (16 kg) Danforth and the FX-37 at the 32° angle.

Below is an image of this anchor after we were finally able to pull it out. A video from Day 4 is also below, and the segment with the FX-16 is just after the 8:00 minute mark.




This test obviously highlighted the importance of the wider shank / fluke angle for soft mud anchoring, which is no secret to Fortress, as Baldt, Bruce, the US Navy, and Vryhoff all make anchors with this configuration capability for this type of bottom.
Cool. That seems pretty convincing.

I guess I could disconnect the Spade from the main anchor rode and use it on that with the windlass, but that's a real PITA since I'm using the concealed pin Wichard shackle which needs the pin Loctited in place.

I don't really know of any other way to use the windlass with a different anchor. Maybe I could add some kind of connector which is easier to disconnect.

Otherwise, I'm left with using the Fortress on a nylon rope rode which has to be hauled in by hand.
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 10:07   #25
Registered User
 
avb3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,905
Images: 1
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Cool. That seems pretty convincing.

I guess I could disconnect the Spade from the main anchor rode and use it on that with the windlass, but that's a real PITA since I'm using the concealed pin Wichard shackle which needs the pin Loctited in place.

I don't really know of any other way to use the windlass with a different anchor. Maybe I could add some kind of connector which is easier to disconnect.

Otherwise, I'm left with using the Fortress on a nylon rope rode which has to be hauled in by hand.
Just a silly thinking out of the box idea, (which I have not tried nor know if it would work), have you thought of using what I call a pikeral jig (from fishing) setup?

The idea is both anchors on the rode, separated by a significant amount of space. It would have to involve a lot of scope, but with the Fortress being the lead anchor, setting it, and if the Spade sets, great, if not it is there as a potential backup. Then you could use your windlass.

Something like this:

Click image for larger version

Name:	pikerel jig anchor.png
Views:	153
Size:	7.0 KB
ID:	92274
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
avb3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 12:39   #26
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,340
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Just a silly thinking out of the box idea, (which I have not tried nor know if it would work), have you thought of using what I call a pikeral jig (from fishing) setup?

The idea is both anchors on the rode, separated by a significant amount of space. It would have to involve a lot of scope, but with the Fortress being the lead anchor, setting it, and if the Spade sets, great, if not it is there as a potential backup. Then you could use your windlass.

Something like this:

Attachment 92274

Great picture!

It seems like a great idea in theory, but I am allergic to multiple anchor setups. I admit that I have very little experience, but that experience was so negative -- a tangle every time I tried it . . . .
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 12:55   #27
Registered User
 
transmitterdan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: Valiant 42
Posts: 5,283
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

Dockhead,

We have a capstan on our windless (horizontal Lighthouse1501) to help pull up the FX-37 which is on about 5M chain then 5/8 nylon. Still messy but saves the back muscles.
transmitterdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 13:15   #28
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
Dockhead,

We have a capstan on our windless (horizontal Lighthouse1501) to help pull up the FX-37 which is on about 5M chain then 5/8 nylon. Still messy but saves the back muscles.
A Lighthouse horizontal windlass is one of my wet dreams.

Unfortunately I have much more mundane vertical Lewmar Ocean windlass.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 13:44   #29
Sponsoring Vendor

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 413
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

Dockhead,

To be very frank, without mechanical help I don't think that you would be able to get your 32 lb (15 kg) FX-55 anchor out of the soft mud after a heavy blow if you set it at the 45° angle.

During preliminary testing, it held to over 4,000 lbs (1,800 kg) several times and tripped the aft winch in the process, so if you don't need storm-condition holding power, then I would leave it at the 32° angle.

And your sailing grounds sound quite idyllic.

Enjoy,
Brian
Fortress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2014, 14:15   #30
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,340
Re: Anchoring in Soft Mud

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortress View Post
Dockhead,

To be very frank, without mechanical help I don't think that you would be able to get your 32 lb (15 kg) FX-55 anchor out of the soft mud after a heavy blow if you set it at the 45° angle.

During preliminary testing, it held to over 4,000 lbs (1,800 kg) several times and tripped the aft winch in the process, so if you don't need storm-condition holding power, then I would leave it at the 32° angle.

And your sailing grounds sound quite idyllic.

Enjoy,
Brian
Well, believe it or not, I've used my Fortress a few times

That force does not exceed the SWL of the rode I'm using. I generally run it over a bow roller, tie it off securely to a bow cleat, then power it out with the main engine (100 hp Yanmar). Then, haul it up by hand (or use the giant electric Lewmar sheet winches ).

The main problem is the stinky mud.
__________________

Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor, anchoring

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anchoring in Mud Teeto Anchoring & Mooring 111 23-03-2011 09:16
Stuck in the MUD!! cchris0411 The Sailor's Confessional 2 08-11-2006 11:13
mud berths for sailboats gonesail General Sailing Forum 12 14-06-2006 14:03
xyz anchor rated "best" by Practal Sailor for mud Ram Health, Safety & Related Gear 8 23-04-2006 20:26



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:04.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.