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Old 08-05-2009, 07:04   #16
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We eliminated shackles years ago in the fishing industry in Alaska. We use the hammerlocks instead. It is like 3 times the strength and is equal usually to the chain you are attaching too. Without a swivel, chain will get in tension and twist up, I do not know why but it does, and it will roll up on the bottom even if you wre swinging only a little. No matter why it is twisting, without a relief of a swivel it will just work its way down the line and bind up as it gets tighter. No fun. I have a big swivle and never have twisted chain...:-)

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Old 08-05-2009, 07:40   #17
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But I do not understand how a swivel at the end of the chain can stop twists developing at the 30m mark. I never get any twists in the first 20 metres of the chain.

If a boat is not swinging around the anchor how can a swivel help?
Why not put on an appropriate swivel (right size / strength) and see what happens? If the twists no longer occur, you've given yourself a physics brainteaser for hours of cheap entertainment: "How could this possibly work?"

If it doesn't work, you're left with the satisfaction of being able to say: "I knew a swivel couldn't be the answer!"

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Old 08-05-2009, 09:43   #18
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What style anchor are you using? Do you have this problem with just one anchor or multiple?

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Old 08-05-2009, 09:45   #19
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As jmolan mentions, ordinary shackles are just not suficiently robust and reliable as the hammerlocks.

I use these Stainless swivels because you can completely disassemble them and inspect them for cracks...none of the others on the market have this feature and I would always wonder what is going on inside after heavy use...why wonder, just inspect:

Best Marine Imports - Kong Swivels

When new carefully debur the parts that rotate and assemble using Locktite on the single fastener threads for a good night's sleep at anchor.
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Old 08-05-2009, 21:31   #20
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I don't understand this "shackles aren't robust enough" song... even aircraft carriers and supertankers use shackles so why would they be too weak for you? Also, if you have a galvanized chain, you should use galvanized swivels & shackles, not stainless steel.

So, IMO you need oversized end-links on the chain with oversized galvanized shackle and/or swivel. Or you go the stainless path, starting with the chain and anchor and the hammerlock looks like a nice connector for them.

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Old 08-05-2009, 21:49   #21
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it's not the huge mystery...

...that some correspondents are implying. Watch when you weigh anchor in clear water, and you'll notice that it does not spin as it ascends. And yet the chain spins around the gypsy, twisting one rotation each time the gypsy makes a complete revolution. That necessarily results in twist unless (1) your anchor spins on the way up or (2) you install a swivel. And the only way most anchors will spin on the way up is if you raise them VERY slowly.

This is why those of us with swivels tend not to complain about chain twist, and those of us without swivels can't figure out why their chain doesn't behave itself.
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Old 08-05-2009, 22:25   #22
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I don't understand this "shackles aren't robust enough" song... even aircraft carriers and supertankers use shackles so why would they be too weak for you? Also, if you have a galvanized chain, you should use galvanized swivels & shackles, not stainless steel.

So, IMO you need oversized end-links on the chain with oversized galvanized shackle and/or swivel. Or you go the stainless path, starting with the chain and anchor and the hammerlock looks like a nice connector for them.

cheers,
Nick.
I drive a 125' steel trawler in the Bearing Sea. The one ton anchor has stud link chain and is attached with a special pear link. (and a swivel) I suspect you will never find a shackle on a big vessel anchor system. Marquip Connecting Links, Towing Shackles, Towing Plates

If you use a shackle small enough to fit in a 3/8's chain it will be something like 1/3 the strength of the chain. No biggie most the time, but there are better ways.

Good move if you get an oversized link, and I agree that you should make it all galvey or SS.
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Old 08-05-2009, 23:43   #23
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I suspect you will never find a shackle on a big vessel anchor system.
You suspect wrong then. Large ships typically have lugless joining shackles joining each shackle or shot (90-foot length of anchor chain).

You'll also find that joining links have about the same safe-working load rating as the equivalent-size BBB chain.
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Old 09-05-2009, 07:39   #24
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You suspect wrong then. Large ships typically have lugless joining shackles joining each shackle or shot (90-foot length of anchor chain).

You'll also find that joining links have about the same safe-working load rating as the equivalent-size BBB chain.
Just like the one I showed in the link (no pun intended) click on and look at the bottom of the page.Marquip Connecting Links, Towing Shackles, Towing Plates

MARQUIP® forged detachable chain connecting links replace bulky shackles and end links.

We use what you are describing I think, but there is no pin to screw in or protrude outside. Which is what I understand a shackle to be. The thing you are describing sounds like what we use. We call them connecting links in Alaska.

Joining links maybe the same thing, I think they are. Yes same or better strength as the chain attached to. BUt I have never heard them called shackles.

I have a farmer friend that calls a shackle a "Clevis"

Maybe we are tripping over terms here.
I have heard if you want to start an argument amongst sailors just claim your style of anchor system is the best.....

Sorry for the thread drift.....But it is anchors right?

Please use what ever style of anchor and chain and swivel you like, it is all part of the great freedom we call sailing.
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Old 09-05-2009, 08:46   #25
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I suspect you will never find a shackle on a big vessel anchor system.
All these are shackles in my interpretation of the word: Anchors for ships and anchors for boats.

So, pin removable or welded in place doesn't make it a different shape connector?? I regard all these the same and those fancy expensive stainless connectors that often fail different.

Quote:
If you use a shackle small enough to fit in a 3/8's chain it will be something like 1/3 the strength of the chain. No biggie most the time, but there are better ways.
I agree, I sometimes see that and don't understand why people choose to do that. If the chain is HT/G4 or stronger, it's just silly to do that. You really need an oversize end-link on the chain and a shackle and swivel that are at least matching the chain in working load and ultimate breaking strength. I use 3/4" shackle and swivel on a 3/8" G7 chain (6600 pound working load, 20,000 pound breaking strength).

Problems arise if the anchor roller is so small that a decent shackle or swivel can't pass it. When that happens to be the case, a shiny expensive toy connector is choosen to solve that instead of a bigger roller.

cheers,
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Old 11-05-2009, 16:42   #26
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Ok - I will try out a swivel.

Any suggestions on the best type and size for 1/2inch chain. I remember reading a sailing magazine a few years back comparing many swivels and some of the results were quite scary. The swivel were either weak of would jam against the anchor shaft.
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Old 12-05-2009, 02:09   #27
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Ok - I will try out a swivel.

Any suggestions on the best type and size for 1/2inch chain...
The ˝" - 5/8" (12-14mm) KONG 644.12 anchor swivel has a Working Load Limit (WLL or SWL) of 6,600 Lbs, and a Breaking Strength of 20,900 Lbs.

˝" G3 Proof Coil chain has a WLL of 4,500 Lbs, a proof test of 9,000#, and a minimum breaking strength of 18,000#.
˝" G43 High Test chain has a WLL of 9,200 Lbs, and a minimum breaking strength of 27,600#.
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Old 12-05-2009, 17:30   #28
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The ˝" - 5/8" (12-14mm) KONG 644.12 anchor swivel has a Working Load Limit (WLL or SWL) of 6,600 Lbs, and a Breaking Strength of 20,900 Lbs.
Yep but it's stainless steel so not so good when your anchor and chain is galvanized. I started using 5/8" or even 3/4" galvanized steel swivels like you can find in the Lewis Marine catalog.

That 6600 lbs working load is interresting as it is the same as for 3/8" G7 chain...

cheers,
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Old 15-05-2009, 12:31   #29
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An item in today's 'Lectronic Latitude is well-worth reading by those who may have concluded, after reading this thread, that a swivel is always the right answer:

* * *

"We fired up the engine and tried to raise the anchor. Unfortunately, it was no longer at the end of the chain! After getting over the shock of seeing nothing but chain, we deployed our Fortress back-up anchor and spent the balance of the afternoon considering how lucky we were that it hadn't happend at night or while we were ashore."

* * *

For the rest of "The Weakest Link" story, go to:

Latitude 38 - The West's Premier Sailing & Marine Magazine

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Old 15-05-2009, 13:12   #30
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"...And yet the chain spins around the gypsy, twisting one rotation each time the gypsy..." HUH? The chain on my gypsy just goes over the gypsy... no twisting involved (as if it was coming off the end of a spool....??) You need a groove in your bow roller to avoid occasional twisting riding over the gypsy. The chain/ anchor should be untwisting as it is dangling on the way up if there is a twist in it and you have a groove in the roller....
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