5/16 HT or 3/8 HT Chain?

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Ayone have any experience with these:

http://www.suncorstainless.com/unive...ainless-swivel

I have been using one this season instead of shackle as it comes up over roller easier, and I suspect may allow shank of my rocna to be buried easier.

Just wondering if I am setting up for an issue?


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I don't like the way the swivel is made. Usually just a cap screw.


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[zboss]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Ayone have any experience with these:

Universal Anchor Swivel | Stainless Swivel

I have been using one this season instead of shackle as it comes up over roller easier, and I suspect may allow shank of my rocna to be buried easier.

Just wondering if I am setting up for an issue?


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Yes, I have one. For me, its too big to fit through my chain capture and therefore makes us pull the anchor up over the chain capture in order to seat the anchor; we have just removed it.

- z

[ErBrown]

I love this forum, and a64 I swear I'm not stalking you. It's been great though, almost every question I have regarding our refit, I do a little searching and come across a thread where you asked the same question.

I'd be interested to know what you decided on and how the 38 reacted to the additional weight. We have an IP40, very similar boat though slightly heavier and have decided on a Ronca 33kg (73#). Now we're struggling with the same thing your dealing with in this thread. Our windlass manufacturer (Lighthouse) actually recommends against G70, due to it supposedly not handling shock loads well due to the heat treatment. So that's threw me for a bit of a loop as I was counting on the weight savings of stepping down to 5/16" G70 from the 3/8" G40 that rocna recommends.

I'd like to carry 250' of chain but that adds up to about 375 lbs with 3/8" G40. I'm sure the boat can take it, but would be interested to hear what you went with and what if anything it changed on your boat.

Thanks again,
EB

[a64pilot]

I think we have the same Rocna, BTW, tie the roll bar to the SS tubing on the bow sprit, I didn't and got to fight the anchor back onto the boat in high seas at night in a squall while it was trying to knock a hole in the side of the boat. Minor damage, but it didn't sound like it at the time. I thought I had lost a chain plate the initial bang was so loud and shook the boat. It stays tied now.
I bought a half barrel of G40 from Defender, 5/16" and maybe should have gone to 3/8"
Anchor locker is huge of course, could have taken much more and weight doesn't seem to bother her, no hobby horsing. But I have a lot more weight on the back of the boat than I think you do with the generator, dinghy and all so I was worried about having so much weight in the ends, but it hasn't bothered her at all. I think an IP has a lot of "reserve buoyancy" and will carry more weight than some other designs.
Should I have gone to 3/8", maybe. I hope not. I base a lot of that though on having never heard a reasonable report of anyone ever stretching a chain to where it was unusable or breaking one. I've stretched several over the years with farm tractors and the like so I know they stretch badly before they break, 70 (transport chain) may not stretch much, likely it will just pop, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

I think if I had to do it again, I'd go with 3/8", maybe not necessary, but I'd feel better in storm conditions.


We are pretty much doing similar things to similar boats, yours is newer, a little bigger and I wish I had your fuel tankage, but I think ours will be OK.

I plan on having standing rigging and chain plates replaced when we leave. I'm waiting until I can be there for that as I want to observe. I'm leaning towards Mack Sails to do the work.

Whatever you do, I'd appreciate knowing about as like you say we are very similar and seem to be heading in the same direction.

If / when you start up-grading charging systems etc., try to make sure it's Life-Po capable as I got a gut feeling one day that may be mainstream. Battery charger IP put in, and it's location and the wiring used to connect it to the bank was a poor choice in my opinion.

On edit, I may have the 25 kg Rocna, looking at the sizing chart if I had the 33, I feel sure I'd go with the 3/8"

[ErBrown]

Good stuff, thanks again! I'm definitely leaning 3/8" G40.

On the chainplates, might be worth talking to IP. We reached out for a rigger recommendation to check ours, and he came in and dug around for a couple hours and pronounced our chainplates good to go. If they've been well bedded and maintained, you might surprise yourself and not need to replace them. I understand there where several changes in quality of stainless over the years, and we benefited from several of those due to being a '99 but worth looking into.

We're actually doing a full rigging inspection this weekend but given that it's 16 years old, I'm anticipating having to replace all standing rigging, but not having to replace chainplates, pretty much pays for that.

Good luck and thanks again!

[zboss]

We have decided on 300' of G70 5/16" rather than our existing 150' of 3/8" BBB. It weighs about 60 pounds more minus the rope weight (like 10 pounds?) and we won't have to worry about the chain to rope splice when it goes through the windlass.

[colemj]

If you are putting snatch loads on your chain sufficient for breaking the slightly more brittle G70, you have made many, many seriously bad anchoring decisions to get to that point. It would be difficult to conceive a situation where this could suddenly occur and not be the result of bad decisions.

First and foremost is that you should be anchored with a 20' snubber to mitigate snatch and shock loads on the chain.

You guys are using seriously big anchors for your boats. It is funny that you are concerned about chain weight. Our boat is larger and has much more windage and we consider our 25kg Rocna one step up (and have never needed larger in 8yrs of full time anchoring in varied bottoms and conditions).

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by ErBrown

Good stuff, thanks again! I'm definitely leaning 3/8" G40.

On the chainplates, might be worth talking to IP. We reached out for a rigger recommendation to check ours, and he came in and dug around for a couple hours and pronounced our chainplates good to go. If they've been well bedded and maintained, you might surprise yourself and not need to replace them. I understand there where several changes in quality of stainless over the years, and we benefited from several of those due to being a '99 but worth looking into.

We're actually doing a full rigging inspection this weekend but given that it's 16 years old, I'm anticipating having to replace all standing rigging, but not having to replace chainplates, pretty much pays for that.

Good luck and thanks again!

FWIW, I was in Mack sails a bit ago and someone brought in chain plates from an IP (don't know model). They were considered good when inspected on the boat, and mostly looked new, but the owner decided to pull them anyway to check and fully rebed.

Where they where hidden by passing through, they were completely eaten away and hanging in threads. I doubt that boat had another 20kt close reach left in it.

I recommend pulling and inspecting, rather than just looking at them in situ.

Mark

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by ErBrown

Good stuff, thanks again! I'm definitely leaning 3/8" G40.

On the chainplates, might be worth talking to IP. We reached out for a rigger recommendation to check ours, and he came in and dug around for a couple hours and pronounced our chainplates good to go. If they've been well bedded and maintained, you might surprise yourself and not need to replace them. I understand there where several changes in quality of stainless over the years, and we benefited from several of those due to being a '99 but worth looking into.

We're actually doing a full rigging inspection this weekend but given that it's 16 years old, I'm anticipating having to replace all standing rigging, but not having to replace chainplates, pretty much pays for that.

Good luck and thanks again!

Mine are 27 years old, will be 28 when we go.
Older boats like mine had 304 SS chainplates, 304 is stronger but more susceptible to corrosion than 316.
New chainplates are 316L, the L means its a better material to weld, and they are dimensionally bigger so the end strength is the same as the old 304, just much better for corrosion resistance, and like you say if the deck bedding was replaced every few years, then they should last forever, but unless you owned her, how do you know if it were done or not?

I went to and toured the factory last Summer and went with the intent on talking to them about IP doing the re-fit, which they have a program for.
We came to a conclusion that my boat wasn't in bad enough shape to warrant a factory re-fit, but they did encourage that I have the chainplates replaced.
It is and isn't that big a deal to have them replaced, the big deal is getting to them, the furniture has to be removed, and it is a one time job, old ones will be 28 when they will be replaced, new ones are superior and will outlast the old ones, so will the boat still be around when she is 60?
Maybe, my little airplane was built in 1946, and will I am sure outlive me.
But I won't own the boat when she turns 60 if she is still around.
My boat wasn't used much, she has original standing rigging and sails, both are in very good shape, but do you start out cruising with 28 yr old sails and standing rigging?
Then I have another year and a half before we can go, and I'm afraid I'm over preparing. New sails arrive either today or next Tues, I assume Mon is a holiday

[ErBrown]

I guess to me, 20lbs of anchor doesn't make as much of a difference in bow weight, particularly since Rocna recommends the same chain for the 25 and 33kg anchors. At least that's my thinking, right or wrong. Our boat also weight almost 2x what yours does and with arch and panels will have plenty of windage (more than I'd like).

Not saying you're wrong and I'm right, but those are the factors that go into our decision. I do see the chain weight as a pretty significant factor. Still always appreciate the perspective of folks (like you) who are actually out there doing it.

[a64pilot]

Mark, the money is in removing and replacing chainplates.
Only a fool would in my opinion put old ones back in, start with new, then you know.
I have a 25 kg Rocna, and it is I believe correct for my boat according to Rocna, His 40 is bigger and heavier than me, although I should be using 3/8' G40 chain using the same Rocna chart.
Can you have too much anchor?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by ErBrown

I guess to me, 20lbs of anchor doesn't make as much of a difference in bow weight, particularly since Rocna recommends the same chain for the 25 and 33kg anchors. At least that's my thinking, right or wrong. Our boat also weight almost 2x what yours does and with arch and panels will have plenty of windage (more than I'd like).

Not saying you're wrong and I'm right, but those are the factors that go into our decision. I do see the chain weight as a pretty significant factor. Still always appreciate the perspective of folks (like you) who are actually out there doing it.

Well, the thought about anchor size was intended to be a minor observation. My main point was I think the recommendation you got regarding G70 was bunk in practice.

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Mark, the money is in removing and replacing chainplates.
Only a fool would in my opinion put old ones back in, start with new, then you know.
I have a 25 kg Rocna, and it is I believe correct for my boat according to Rocna, His 40 is bigger and heavier than me, although I should be using 3/8' G40 chain using the same Rocna chart.
Can you have too much anchor?

Yes, I agree that replacing chain plates is a minor cost in the overall scheme. Particularly so, it seems, for your boat. For ours, I can remove the chain plates in less than five minutes each without needing to move anything, but the cost of fabbing them is quite high. Your calculus goes the other way - but in the end we both probably pay the same.

There are several times one has too much anchor. The first of those times is carrying it to the boat and installing it. Then, if your windlass goes...

Other than that, if your bow pulpit is still clear of the water, be happy.

Mark

[zboss]

Originally Posted by ErBrown

I guess to me, 20lbs of anchor doesn't make as much of a difference in bow weight, particularly since Rocna recommends the same chain for the 25 and 33kg anchors. At least that's my thinking, right or wrong. Our boat also weight almost 2x what yours does and with arch and panels will have plenty of windage (more than I'd like).

Not saying you're wrong and I'm right, but those are the factors that go into our decision. I do see the chain weight as a pretty significant factor. Still always appreciate the perspective of folks (like you) who are actually out there doing it.

That was a consideration for us as well...but... there are ways to mitigate extra chain weight- like not completely filling a forward water tank, or not using the locker for storage, etc. Not putting canned foods forward, etc.

[ErBrown]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I bought a half barrel of G40 from Defender, 5/16" and maybe should have gone to 3/8"
Anchor locker is huge of course, could have taken much more and weight doesn't seem to bother her, no hobby horsing.

So how much chain is a half barrel, 200ft? Did you notice a change in trim/waterline level?

Thanks again.