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Old 09-06-2011, 18:54   #136
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

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Originally Posted by doug86 View Post
, you dinghy could be hit by a passing boat, and you end up in the water with two broken legs and unconscious.

There are plenty of advantages to wearing a PFD even if you are a skilled swimmer.

Yea,....maybe......like what are the chances though?

So small that it is not significant IMO.
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Old 09-06-2011, 18:58   #137
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

Doug,

Your response reflects an attitude that is typical of many of us. We routinely use "appropriate" safety gear. The concern that I have is not the areas where many of us already do (and less responsible folk SHOULD), but rather in areas where no one should. Writing regulations well enough to cover the places that should require, while excluding those that shouldn't, is the challenge. For instance, if we exempt wear on a boat that is anchored (a reasonable exemption), would it not be equally appropriate to exempt a boat that is drifting (while swimming, fishing, or just "enjoying the day")? But that drifting boat is underway. And how long a trip, with how many deviations, is allowed while going to and from the mother ship -- and how do you "prove" it?

The issue isn't one of "is it generally a good idea" -- the problem is how to deal with the 15% (75%?) of the time when it is overkill. And I'm still waiting for the "test case" that says "of course it's a good idea, and I do it." Not, "I will" (we all follow laws to some extent). Unlike seat belts where there was a core group who already did it, I don't think there is ANY significant group that are setting the example.

I got a ticket once for "driving on the shoulder." I was guilty, clearly. I was in dead slow stop and go traffic, and I was 1-2' onto the shoulder straddling a series of large potholes. Common sense doesn't matter once a law is made!

Harry
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Old 09-06-2011, 19:01   #138
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

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Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
This true for sure, depends entirely on the circumstances...

I just want to be the judge of when & where. In my dinghy, the motor will turn to starboard immediately if I fall in, while alone. It will then be locked in a tight circle and try to run me down. I want the option to swim FAST, and dive under it.

On our trimaran, if I fell over the bow in putting up the spinnaker, I would dive "deep" as fast as possible, in hopes that the centerboard wouldn't cut me in half. THEN call for help!

In the same vane, if we were caught in the ultimate storm and capsized, the boat would be awash, but bobbing around upside down like a cork! It would be the ability to NOT be pinned against the deck by a life jacket, that would allow us to get into the cabin, with it's air lock and supplies.

On the other hand... When I go out in my kayak in the winter, I DO wear my inflatable life jacket. I learned first hand from a lifeguard certification tests, that swimming "fully" clothed, WITH shoes, is a 1 minute or so proposition. In cold water it can be certain death if you don't get help.

Likewise... when I went out to adjust lines on our boat in a hurricane, (by doing the sidestroke in a 13' storm surge), I had on my inflatable life vest. I didn't deploy it, but had it in case.

They certainly have their place. I just want to decide when & where.

Since circumstances vary so much from boat to boat, and person to person, as well as with the time of year... I just feel that this is the place for education, rather than a "one size fits all" law.

One size just doesn't fit all.

Mark

BTW... ONLY a HUGE old fashioned "May West" style life vest will actually turn an unconscious person face up in rough water. ALL of the options that most people would be willing to wear, are mostly useful in cold water "fell overboard" situations where they can assist with their hands a bit.
IF they are actually knocked unconscious on a windy choppy day, they will still drown if not rescued within minutes. If their neck goes limp, they drown.

ergxactly.

No amount of laws in this instance are going to change the death rate by any significant amount.

And NO, I do not support the "If it saves just one life it is worth it (cost and all)". That is just hysteria and emotion.

My sport/lifestyle has certain dangers. I accept that.

How about just like education. Like reading. Learn it and forget it at your peril.
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Old 09-06-2011, 19:03   #139
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

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Originally Posted by doug86 View Post
Yes, of course. But.. but... (there's always a but) what happens when your personal judgment was incorrect that day? Isn't that the entire point of wearing a PFD? The point of a PFD is to be there to save your ass when things somehow didn't go as you thought, or as you "judged" that they would.

Here is the issue. Once your judgment is wrong, the scenario suddenly includes more than just you. Your families, your fellow crew, those who hope to rescue you, and of course the taxpayers who are footing the bill for the search & rescue; don't these folks have some judgment too? Suddenly, you are not in this debate all by yourself. You are surrounded by people who love you, people who care about you, and folks who never met you but might be risking their lives to look for you. The rescue guys don't have this luxury of "when & where" that you find so precious. They are in fact at your mercy, and may become the victims of your poor judgement.

This is not all so simple as the cries of "Nanny State"! make it out to be.
Those know ahead of time what you do. If close they know why. Not a problem.
Those others know what they do for a living and as adults accept the risk - which is the same jacket or no jacket.
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Old 09-06-2011, 19:15   #140
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

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Harry, I don't "value" this proposed law, but rather I wanted to point out that the issue is more complicated than "I should be free to do what ever I want in my own boat. Period!"

As to how I act; I wear a Mustang Suspenders style, USCG approved for work, and I admit it took a season to get used to it, but now I hardly even know it's there. We are not required my law to wear them, but we choose to do so both for our safety and to set an example for our customers.

I rarely wear it when on my private dinghy, but I would not find it any big deal to do so. One valid point someone made was that these things are expensive, and what the heck do you do with it when you get to shore? Surely this isn't an insurmountable issue though.

I also have a "FloatTech" float coat with approved inflatable vest when ever the weather gets lousy. I have worn that jacket many times on the dinghy in the rain. I have an extra approved suspender style for the rare guest that I would have on my dinghy. Having to wear them all the time in the dinghy would be a pain in the ass, but I believe having it on can save my life.

Note to all the thread participants: this new regulation is just in the proposal stages. It is not the law, nor is it written in stone. Now is the time to participate and get your opinion heard. There will compromises and adjustments to the final rule. The USCG will have a "comment period" where you can send comments by mail or on the web.

For instance, I think an exemption for travel to/from a mother ship in an inflatable tender would be considered, as would other exemptions for divers etc. Also, there are the small inflatable devices that can be worn on a belt, or even strapped to your wrist, and I think a case could be made for those to be mandatory on dinghies in trade for the the required PFDs in your dink now. The only difference is that you would have it attached to you in some way.

The modern inflatable PFDs are really not so bad. And, contrary to someone's post, many type V PFDs will turn an unconscious person face up.

I too got a seatbelt ticket years ago, and it really pissed me off. In hindsight though, it was that ticket that got me into the habit of buckling up, which I always do now. I was furious when the law was imposed, but I know now that I would not have worn my seat belt had it not been for that law and my getting the ticket. So I see how a rule can and does change people's behavior, even if we all hate the rule when it comes around.

I'm not saying this proposed rule is great, but I am not using it as an example of our gov't run amok either.

Well good for you.

I started wearing them for a different reason.

I have also worn motorcycle helmets in Florida where the the laws have changed, flip flopped back and forth over the years.

It is hot here. a helmet is hotter than a jacket. I have, on a few occasions not worn a helmet - so much cooler and more comfotable. Several times in over 200,000 miles on two wheels.

I want the same for the jacket.

Education and a choice. MY choice. Oh please about the family and friends crying. Spare me.

But I have gone on and on too far by half.

One more beer and then bed.
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Old 09-06-2011, 20:05   #141
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

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BTW... ONLY a HUGE old fashioned "May West" style life vest will actually turn an unconscious person face up in rough water. ALL of the options that most people would be willing to wear, are mostly useful in cold water "fell overboard" situations where they can assist with their hands a bit.
IF they are actually knocked unconscious on a windy choppy day, they will still drown if not rescued within minutes. If their neck goes limp, they drown.
Just to correct that, 270newton inflatable jackets, using two 30g or one 60g clyinder are desiged to due just that, turn a large man , wearing full wetgear, face up. I use one all the time when offshore.

When we sailed across the atlantic, at night it was decided mandatory wearing of jackets was a good idea. They did not prove cumbersome.

I remain undecided about such laws. we live in a society that generally feels "it knows whats best for us". I can see teh day coming.

Dave
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Old 09-06-2011, 20:23   #142
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

as far s principle goes-- there are already waay too many laws telling citizens how to be safe and how to live-- govt wasnt made for that one-- we need to act like real people with real brains and common sense .. to many laws=big govt--not in our favor.
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Old 09-06-2011, 20:28   #143
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as far s principle goes-- there are already waay too many laws telling citizens how to be safe and how to live-- govt wasnt made for that one-- we need to act like real people with real brains and common sense .. to many laws=big govt--not in our favor.
Bit late now zeehaq

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Old 09-06-2011, 20:30   #144
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

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Bit late now zeehaq

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Old 10-06-2011, 00:47   #145
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

No running with scissors! No matter what the reason!
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Old 10-06-2011, 07:54   #146
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

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No running with scissors!
This one I would wear a PFD!

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Old 10-06-2011, 08:02   #147
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

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Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
In my dinghy, the motor will turn to starboard immediately if I fall in, while alone. It will then be locked in a tight circle and try to run me down. I want the option to swim FAST, and dive under it.

On our trimaran, if I fell over the bow in putting up the spinnaker, I would dive "deep" as fast as possible, in hopes that the centerboard wouldn't cut me in half. THEN call for help!
You think highly of your reaction time. I've gone overboard twice (stupid x 2) and can tell you for sure that unless you are Superman you won't get out of the way of the centerboard and the dinghy will do at least one circle before you get your wits about you.

I now wear my inflatable PFD in the dinghy all the time and am religious about the kill-switch lanyard.

Carrying my PFD into stores and restaurants is a non-issue.
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:42   #148
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

Oddly, it seems the rules as currently being tossed around may not require a PFD on at least some boats with engines, but will require one on ANY human-powered boats! That's kind of backwards -- lots of opportunities to get hurt with an engine (speed, boat can keep going, props can cut, etc) and much fewer such opportunities when paddling. Not 100% safe, mind you, but safe-ER.

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Old 10-06-2011, 10:50   #149
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

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You think highly of your reaction time. I've gone overboard twice (stupid x 2) and can tell you for sure that unless you are Superman you won't get out of the way of the centerboard and the dinghy will do at least one circle before you get your wits about you.

I now wear my inflatable PFD in the dinghy all the time and am religious about the kill-switch lanyard.

Carrying my PFD into stores and restaurants is a non-issue.
Ausipicious,

You may be my "example" I'm looking for! You sail on the Chesapeake, arguably a generally safer location than many (better protected with warmer water), with notoriously hot weather. I assume that when you say you always wear it in the dingy, that means when rowing too? Out of curiosity, how many "guest" inflatables do you carry? Even if you only have passengers 1 day a year, they need wearable PFD's. And, with regard to taking your PFD ashore, I can see that as very easy for the fanny-pack style PFDs, but not the more secure harness style that I have -- do you have one style for the dingy and one for the boat? Walking through town for an hour or two with a SOSpender around your neck would be hot, not to mention attracting a few stares!

Thanks

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Old 10-06-2011, 10:55   #150
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Re: USCG Considers Mandatory PFD Use !

walking around mazatlan with sospenders on constantly would give a bad rash.
folks -- get real. common sense is better than stoopit rules and laws. goood luck.
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