Propane Placement Poses A Predicament

[SV Demeter]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

the trident propane locker that is spoken of is vented overboard,

http://www.alliedseawindii.org/kbase...opane/lpg2.jpg

For what its worth this is not an install that would likely pass ABYC muster :

http://www.alliedseawindii.org/kbase...opane/lpg2.jpg

Looks like the locker opens to another locker or worse yet to the inside of the boat. Can anyone comment on this? Am I misinterpreting?

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by SV Demeter

For what its worth this is not an install that would likely pass ABYC muster :

http://www.alliedseawindii.org/kbase...opane/lpg2.jpg

Looks like the locker opens to another locker or worse yet to the inside of the boat. Can anyone comment on this? Am I misinterpreting?

The propane locker in this photo is in the starboard cockpit locker of an Allied Seawind II. The Installation, As I interpret it, does not strictly follow the ABYC installation guidelines. But IMHO is safe enough.

[ReMetau]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

The propane locker in this photo is in the starboard cockpit locker of an Allied Seawind II. The Installation, As I interpret it, does not strictly follow the ABYC installation guidelines. But IMHO is safe enough.

As long as there is a drain line at the bottom of that box draining externally.

[Jim Cate]

FWIW,

One's nose (in normal condition) can detect the odorizer at concentrations many times lower than the minimum explosive limit.

On our boat, the locker is part of the lazarette, sealed off from the hull's interior and incorporating nearly a square foot of vent area which goes directly overboard. Yet when we had an o-ring failure at the tank connection which lead to a very small leak, both Ann and I were able to smell the gas in the cockpit. Quickly fixed, but it gave me some confidence that unless we both had head colds we would detect the smell below decks long before it became a hazard. Of course, we have a detector in the (tiny) bilge as well, but it never has had cause to alarm.

And for Brian (Mr B): that's why marine stoves incorporate thermopile controlled valves that shut of the gas if the flame is extinguished. Glad that you escaped with so little damage!

Propane certainly requires consideration and care, but IMO is far less hazardous than petrol inboard engines.

Cheers,

Jim

[Mr B]

As for a blocked drain hole in the Gemini's propane locker, its right between the bottles and you look down the hole as you lean in, Its about an inch in diameter,

Big big for the mud wasps to fill, I change the bottles every two weeks, so it gets checked every time I change bottles,
I also check the hole every time I lower the drive leg to motor, The hydraulics for the drive leg are in the same compartment,

Being an Engineering Blacksmith by trade and an onsite Boilermaker welder all my working life, I carry full size bottles of Oxy, Acetylene and Propane, on my truck, and all my vehicles run on LP gas, so I have been driving a Bomb for the last 40 odd years,
Its all exposed to the open air,

I did have the Acetylene hose catch fire once, The safety officer on site did not have a clue on what to do, I had a 30 foot flame coming off the truck, I came down from the second floor and calmly walked over and turned the bottle off,

Then I gave him a dressing down for not knowing what to do, He is supposed to know these things,
Onsite Plumbers, Boilermakers, Roofers, Drainage contractors, Earth moving, Air conditioning, All carry bottles of various explosive gasses,

And he didnt know how to turn them off, And he is the safety officer, Duhhh,

I have had a few decent explosions over the years, So even perfectly maintained and updated modern gear still has moments when it all goes to crap, Things do happen, no matter how well you are prepared for them,

There have been a few cars that had gas inside them leak and exploded, all you have left is a flat deck with wheels, What ever the car was, totally gone,

It is against the law here to carry gas in an enclosed vehicle, with out it being in an approved container that is externally vented, Thats a big louvre built on the side of the car,

[micah719]

Of course he wouldn't go near a flaming gas bottle...he is a safety officer. What you needed was a danger officer.

Btw, one quick squirt off a 1kg powder extinguisher is enough to put out a gas flame from a point source....but then you've got unburnt gas streaming out, next stop, kaboom. If you can't stop the gas, better to keep the bottle cool and let the gas burn off.

[Mr B]

It blew the hose, The bottle wasnt on fire, Just turn the bottle off, the fire was out instantly, and I used my bare hand to turn it off, it wasnt hot,

But if I didnt turn it off, I had Oxy, Propane, Petrol in the mobile welders tank, and LP gas underneath the bottles under the truck,,Plus the battery in the welder, all in very close proximity to each other,

It could have got out of hand, Once the rubber hoses started to really burn,
I ran 165 metres of Oxy - Acetylene hoses off the bottles on the truck,

All this on the back of a F100, 3 metre tray,

[SV Demeter]

"The propane locker in this photo is in the starboard cockpit locker of an Allied Seawind II. The Installation, As I interpret it, does not strictly follow the ABYC installation guidelines. But IMHO is safe enough."

I would agree it is probably is safe enough but I would caution you that if you have insurance on the boat and you have a claim resulting from a propane fire/explosion your insurance company could potentially deny the claim if it turns out in fact that your install did not meet ABYC. The locker can not open to the interior space. Im not sure if having it open to another locker that is not connected to the boats interior is a problem but like I said if you carry insurance it might be worth confirming that your install meets the code. Please dont interpret this as me taking shots at your install Im just offering an opinion. I am currently struggling with a proper location for tankage on my own boat and have an install that does not strictly meet ABYC but is nonetheless one I feel safe enough as well.

[SV Demeter]

Back to the subject of rail mounting tanks. How are you guys getting the gas hose and electrical line for solenoid below? Its looking like I am going to mount a fiberglass Trident locker on my aft deck along side of the stern rail. Im a center cockpit ketch with the aft deck wrapped in a fixed rail. I would locate the locker on the inside of the rail with a drain over the side but I need to get the gas hose and electrical lines below. Guessing I will use deck glands but am not crazy about drilling holes in my deck.

Another thought I had was to mount the locker near or even onto the mizzen mast. I have a swan necked pipe that the mizzen wiring runs below decks through and could run the propane hose and solenoid wires that way. This would mean no new holes in the deck but as you can see in the photo there are 2 dorade vents nearby and Im not sure about the venting of the tank locker...

Here is the locker I want to use:

Holds 10#(tall) Steel or 11#Composite or 17# Composite or 20# Steel or 10# Aluminum.

This new locker will hold one of the new 17lb composite tanks. Also attached is an old photo of my aft deck. If I mount the locker out against the rail it would be on the strbd side.

[videobear]

Originally Posted by sdowney717

1) ...I can see it coming together like a perfect storm of events. ...

Certainly! That's what we call an "accident", when all the things that CAN go wrong, DO.

There's actually a mathematical approach that you can use to tell you whether you should, or should not, add some new level of protection/prevention.

For an accident which requires failures A, B, C.
Calculate: (probability of failure of A) times (probability of failure of B) times (probability of failure of C)=probability of accident.

Next, multiply (probability of accident) times (consequences of accident), where the consequences are quantified in terms of dollars. If the accident you've defined includes injuries or deaths, there are $ values you can plug in for those.

Now, if the value you get for this is greater than the cost of the additional safety measure...implement it.

[endoftheroad]

I think it's fine to mount tanks on the pushpit, it wouldn't hurt to have a couple propane detectors (similar to household smoke detectors) mounted low in the cabin should any propane find it's way inside. I dont mind stepping outside to manually close the valve.

Safe T AlertTM Propane/Natural Gas Alarm, Line Cord - Amazon.com


I know there are links in this thread for the modern skinny 6lb tanks.
Where can I find the old style double tank rail mount?
This system works good with my boomkin frame.

If anyone has a mount with a couple tanks for sale/trade I have a Trident locker ($650 new) system that I'd part with. Westsail's have very little cockpit lazarette space.

endoftheroad

[endoftheroad]

OMG, compare this link with my above link.
Safe-T-Alert - 12V Propane Detectors

[endoftheroad]

There are few nice mount designs online, here is one.
LPG Bottle Mount System : Torrid Marine Water Heaters

[endoftheroad]

recently,maybe it was in this thread a converse of the 1 pound tanks.
You know.....i have never smelled more propane smell than i have from one of those little green bomb tanks.
why are we so worried about propane tank leakage while allowing these 1 pounders?
is it because its mainstream that makes it acceptable?

are there sheep amoung us?

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

FWIW,

One's nose (in normal condition) can detect the odorizer at concentrations many times lower than the minimum explosive limit.

On our boat, the locker is part of the lazarette, sealed off from the hull's interior and incorporating nearly a square foot of vent area which goes directly overboard. Yet when we had an o-ring failure at the tank connection which lead to a very small leak, both Ann and I were able to smell the gas in the cockpit. Quickly fixed, but it gave me some confidence that unless we both had head colds we would detect the smell below decks long before it became a hazard. Of course, we have a detector in the (tiny) bilge as well, but it never has had cause to alarm.

And for Brian (Mr B): that's why marine stoves incorporate thermopile controlled valves that shut of the gas if the flame is extinguished. Glad that you escaped with so little damage!

Propane certainly requires consideration and care, but IMO is far less hazardous than petrol inboard engines.

Cheers,

Jim

Thank you...it always amazes me that the intelligent posts from experienced cruisers and sensible sailors seem to get glossed over by the overly eager but less informed/less able to figure things out/common senseless crowd.

There's only 2 things you have to worry about...letting propane accumulate below decks (rail and locker mounted setups can allow that to happen) AND not detecting it before it blows....nose, detectors, whatever are extraordinarily useful in detecting it..