Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-11-2013, 14:12   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: cruising Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand
Boat: Young Sun 43
Posts: 26
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Hearing your concerns about the overhang and complexity of a system over the stern of the boat I wonder if you had considered Cape Horn vanes as an option for you?
__________________

__________________
Tiki2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2013, 16:14   #17
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki2 View Post
Hearing your concerns about the overhang and complexity of a system over the stern of the boat I wonder if you had considered Cape Horn vanes as an option for you?
HI Tiki2,

Do you know, I had not found those in my searching, thank you for the reference. At first glance they seem very compact indeed. I will find out more about them.

Though, in fairness, if they don't work as an auxiliary rudder I'll probably stick with the current plan as I have become increasingly attracted to the idea of the auxiliary rudder as a backup.

Thanks again,

Matt
__________________

__________________
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2013, 17:09   #18
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,670
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

A couple of things occur to me:

One, every boat I've ever sailed tends to "squat" when sailing fast off the wind. How much does Manera squat? You'll want to plan around that.

Two, with our auxiliary rudder wind vane, we had stabiliser lines going to the cockpit, to make sure it tracked straight, or to be able to cast off one side, and pull the aux. rudder over to help back out of a slip, because as your way comes on, then you can have two rudders helping to turn your boat--a good.

This is not knowledge based at all, but I personally would feel more comfortable with the aux. rudder at the centerline, mostly because I think she will perform more the same for either tack/gybe. When you set things at night, in particular, your muscle memory plays a large part in how you do things, and I'd worry I'd "forget" how to do it right for port vs. stbd. Silly girl.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2013, 17:23   #19
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
A couple of things occur to me:

One, every boat I've ever sailed tends to "squat" when sailing fast off the wind. How much does Manera squat? You'll want to plan around that.

Two, with our auxiliary rudder wind vane, we had stabiliser lines going to the cockpit, to make sure it tracked straight, or to be able to cast off one side, and pull the aux. rudder over to help back out of a slip, because as your way comes on, then you can have two rudders helping to turn your boat--a good.

This is not knowledge based at all, but I personally would feel more comfortable with the aux. rudder at the centerline, mostly because I think she will perform more the same for either tack/gybe. When you set things at night, in particular, your muscle memory plays a large part in how you do things, and I'd worry I'd "forget" how to do it right for port vs. stbd. Silly girl.

Ann
Hi Ann, great to have you on the case...

In order...

1. I have a problem with the sailing fast off the wind concern, as, to the best of my understanding, we haven't managed to do the "fast" bit yet. So far, at up to 7.4 knots through the water (Sally holds that record), I've not observed anything to indicate how much she'll do this if at all. Banjoship might be able to shed some light here, I will ask him.

2. Good idea about the lines, I will look into a way of doing the same. Although my intention is to have this thing out of the water when coming and going from the pen, I conceed it might actually assist us, as per your comment and those from others with auxiliary rudders.

3. The asymetric aspect has bothered many CF members for different reasons. I will pay more attention to getting the device central. I was looking at the stern yesterday from land (yeh gods, that's a broad backside!) and realised I could bring the device closer to the centerline than I had originally anticipated, but again, this will depend on the compactness of the brackets, which brings me right back around to the pillowblock bearing issue.


Matt
__________________
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2013, 17:34   #20
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki2 View Post
Hearing your concerns about the overhang and complexity of a system over the stern of the boat I wonder if you had considered Cape Horn vanes as an option for you?
Ahh rats... turns out to be a servo pendulum. Neat though. But not what I am after.

Matt
__________________
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2013, 02:13   #21
Registered User
 
Normanby's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 312
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Hey Matt,
Really enjoying following your progress, i look forward to seeing photos when you get around to the installation.

I don't mean to drift your thread, but in your extensive research have you ever seen a trim tab self steering system on a boat that had an inboard rudder?

Having read John Lechter's book a few times, i've decided that a trim tab is the thing for me! But my Compass 28 has an inboard rudder - great big barn door of a thing at the back end of the full-ish keel. Must be some way to use a trim tab - an engineering student's PHD perhaps?

Matt
__________________
Normanby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2013, 03:24   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,931
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Just keep in mind that aux rudders are under much more stress than servo/p vanes so everything has to be built very strong.
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2013, 03:45   #23
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Normanby View Post
Hey Matt,
Really enjoying following your progress, i look forward to seeing photos when you get around to the installation.

I don't mean to drift your thread, but in your extensive research have you ever seen a trim tab self steering system on a boat that had an inboard rudder?

Having read John Lechter's book a few times, i've decided that a trim tab is the thing for me! But my Compass 28 has an inboard rudder - great big barn door of a thing at the back end of the full-ish keel. Must be some way to use a trim tab - an engineering student's PHD perhaps?

Matt
Hi Matt (great name),

We have a very similar rudder setup to yours. I have not seen trim tabs on an inboard rudder anywhere yet, I suppose because it would be well near impossible to keep the thing moving freely and not blocking up with barnacles etc.

One thing that has been apparent from all of the reading I have done is that there is very little force available from the wind vane itself. CF members like Jim who have built there own often seem to run into problems with drag on the control cables etc, and some of the early systems had simply ridiculous vane sizes in an attempt to overcome this problem. So unless you could think of some way of encapsulating the whole thing in a watertight environment I would say it would be impossible.

I did doodle a design that used a set of very strong magnets rotated inside the trailing edge of the rudder to control the trim tab. I was feeling quite excited till I thought about the effect on the compass. Really glad I did not get around to building THAT particular design.

But, are you considering this because, like me, you find the idea of the big bracket sticking out the back to be a problem? If so, would the pillowblock bearings be a solution for you also? (Seductive picture to follow!)


Matt
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	pilloblock.jpg
Views:	115
Size:	4.8 KB
ID:	70653  
__________________
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2013, 04:05   #24
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Just keep in mind that aux rudders are under much more stress than servo/p vanes so everything has to be built very strong.
Funny you should mention that... what do you think of those pillow block bearings then? Surely they would stronger than some long armed bracket do you think?

But yes, the rest of it will have to be solid, thinking 1.5" SS tube for the main shaft, with a 4mm wall thickness. 4 or 5mm plate for the flanges that support the blade. Blade itself made with a 1" SS tube core, with ss ribs, foam core and glassed outer.

This is all a bit rough at the moment, I need to get into the steel shop and get my hands of some of this stuff and "feel" the strength.

Matt
__________________
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2013, 05:02   #25
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,948
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

This what I have .... very simple... 39 foot boat...a nominal 8 tonnes..... pix should give an idea of the ratios vane/tab/aux rudder / main rudder.

Works v good, especially good DDW compared with some others, leading edge about 2 inches off the stern. The friend who built it had made about 20 of them , each one sized for the boat it was going on.

Only down side is when going astern.

Cheers,
Frank
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	SSteerer1.jpg
Views:	176
Size:	16.8 KB
ID:	70655   Click image for larger version

Name:	ssteerer2.jpg
Views:	184
Size:	16.7 KB
ID:	70656  

Click image for larger version

Name:	ssteerer3.jpg
Views:	196
Size:	19.2 KB
ID:	70657   Click image for larger version

Name:	ssteerer4.jpg
Views:	202
Size:	61.3 KB
ID:	70658  

__________________
El Pinguino is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2013, 13:21   #26
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Frank,

Those pictures are REALLY very helpful thank you. I note a couple of things with interest, the first being that the trim tab is set well aft and clear of the rudder blade itself, giving much more leverage and allowing the tab itself to be balanced. Good idea.

Also, the SS components seem a little lighter than I had expected, but they are adequate from what you have observed?

Is the dog an essential component? Hard to see from the picture... King Charles? Or do you think it would work equally well with a Schnauzer?

Matt
__________________
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2013, 14:38   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: sydney, australia
Boat: 38 roberts ketch
Posts: 1,021
Images: 3
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Hi Matt (great name),

We have a very similar rudder setup to yours. I have not seen trim tabs on an inboard rudder anywhere yet, I suppose because it would be well near impossible to keep the thing moving freely and not blocking up with barnacles etc.

One thing that has been apparent from all of the reading I have done is that there is very little force available from the wind vane itself. CF members like Jim who have built there own often seem to run into problems with drag on the control cables etc, and some of the early systems had simply ridiculous vane sizes in an attempt to overcome this problem. So unless you could think of some way of encapsulating the whole thing in a watertight environment I would say it would be impossible.

I did doodle a design that used a set of very strong magnets rotated inside the trailing edge of the rudder to control the trim tab. I was feeling quite excited till I thought about the effect on the compass. Really glad I did not get around to building THAT particular design.

But, are you considering this because, like me, you find the idea of the big bracket sticking out the back to be a problem? If so, would the pillowblock bearings be a solution for you also? (Seductive picture to follow!)


Matt


From the photo - if you're going to use those type of bearings i'd advise you to look at the equivalent in a self aligning bearing/housing - the ones pictured look like fixed bearings so getting the mounts to align will be a very difficult business whereas self aligning bearings will self adjust. The biggest killer in self steering systems is friction so any miss-alignment stands to doom your system from the start.
__________________
charliehows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2013, 15:36   #28
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charliehows View Post
From the photo - if you're going to use those type of bearings i'd advise you to look at the equivalent in a self aligning bearing/housing - the ones pictured look like fixed bearings so getting the mounts to align will be a very difficult business whereas self aligning bearings will self adjust. The biggest killer in self steering systems is friction so any miss-alignment stands to doom your system from the start.
Yes, absolutely. Didn't notice those were the non self aligning sort, just grabbed them as they were a nice picture.

Matt
__________________
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2013, 16:54   #29
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,948
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Frank,

Those pictures are REALLY very helpful thank you. I note a couple of things with interest, the first being that the trim tab is set well aft and clear of the rudder blade itself, giving much more leverage and allowing the tab itself to be balanced. Good idea.

Also, the SS components seem a little lighter than I had expected, but they are adequate from what you have observed?

Is the dog an essential component? Hard to see from the picture... King Charles? Or do you think it would work equally well with a Schnauzer?

Matt
Last things first.... Harry the Sailor Prince was a dogs' home dog but he could hand , reef, and steer.

The S/S bits that matter are pretty heavy duty. They are all south of the rudder head.... the bits above that essentially just support the vane.

The bearings are at either end of a S/S tube so self aligning....

Its dark here now... I'll get some pics for you in the morning,
Cheers,
Frank
__________________
El Pinguino is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2013, 18:03   #30
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Placement of windvane steering system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Last things first.... Harry the Sailor Prince was a dogs' home dog but he could hand , reef, and steer.
Now THAT is a salty dawg!

Looking forward to more pics too.

Matt
__________________

__________________
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
men, steering, wind, windvane

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Edson Steering System For Windvane Annie in WA Construction, Maintenance & Refit 19 15-01-2015 20:30
South Atlantic Self Steering Windvane System dancamp009 Auxiliary Equipment & Dinghy 13 30-08-2013 09:05
Cape Horn Windvane Self-Steering System kellyp08 Product or Service Reviews & Evaluations 42 09-02-2013 23:32
For Sale: 2001 Monitor Windvane Self-Steering System happy_sailor Classifieds Archive 11 16-02-2011 15:22
Monitor Cape Horn Windvane Self-Steering MV Auxiliary Equipment & Dinghy 27 01-05-2010 16:21



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:04.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.