Modern rain gear sucks

[robwilk37]

ive had the same Gill dinghy smock and bib for more than 15 years now. still water proof, although I have used a water proofing spray on the seat only. my fowlies are also my snow ski gear and see about 100 days of snow use a season, far more than sailing days here in san diego. last year I noticed the neoprene cuffs, particularly the one at the neck, are starting to break down but really cant complain considering more than 1500 days of hard use.
these are Gills "O2" line FYI...

[colemj]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Have you guys ever considered either taking the foulies back to where you purchased them, or sending them to Gore?

I've considered it, but didn't want to sail the 3,000 miles back to where I bought it, nor pay the $300 to ship it back from where we are.

Unfortunately, the reality for many of us cruising is that the things we purchase can, for all intents and purposes, be considered as not having any warranty.

Mark

[SV THIRD DAY]

"No problem sir, just ship the defective product back to us and then pay to have the repaired or new item shipped back to you.".

Then...

"Oh sir we don't ship internationally. But as a valued customer can I mail you a 20% off coupon"

WTF.....hahhah

Oh and the high priced fashion rain gear sucks. I've been buying the bright orange fishermen stuff and that **** may be ugly....but it works!

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by GordMay

303 High Tech Fabric Guard was rated "Best", when compared to seven other competing brands, after being reviewed and tested by Practical Sailor.
➥ Water Repellents for Fabric - Practical Sailor Article

I looked online for details and think I am finding two different versions of the 303 Fabric Guard, one specifies with water repellent the other does not. I see different product codes and labels so I am guessing this isn't just missing details in the listing but an actual difference in the product.

So I'm assuming the version with water repellent is the one? to use The Practical Sailor article doesn't mention this detail at all. Is it possible the water repellent additive would be overkill and eliminate the breathability of the fabric?

[onestepcsy37]

Anybody try Frogg Toggs?

[ontherocks83]

Rain gear is not a very straight forward thing. First any type of breathable rain gear is not water proof it is just Highly water resistant. The only wearable completely waterproof gear is rubber but that has the downside of being hot. When looking at rain gear you need to take things into consideration.

Who is the manufacturer? (are they more "fashion" or "function")

What is the "waterproof" material? (i.e. Gore tex or other. I strongly suggest sticking with Gore tex although there are others that work)

How is the jacket constructed? (does it have taped seams and sealed zippers?)

What material is the outside of the jacket? (i.e. a courser material will have better wear resistant but tends to hold water on the outside of the jacket and then overwhelms the membrane?

Remember Gore tex (or whatever brand they are using) is only a paper thin membrane between the layers of the jacket that through too much abuse can get damaged. Also gore tex can get dirty and become clogged preventing it from working. It needs to be cleaned with a special non detergent cleaner. If you run it through with normal detergent you will damage it.

To start to learn about rain gear I would recommend going to REI or EMS and finding someone actually knowledgable and have them show you examples of the good and the bad.

I have an Arc'teryx jacket ($550) and Arc'teryx pants ($350) that are phenomenal. They come with a great warranty and return policy but they are not cheap.

[pete33458]

While we're on this topic, anybody hate F&*$ing Velcro flaps over the front closure of your parka as much as I do? Unbelievable. Trying to get your jacket on when the wind is blowing is a series of miscues, trying to separate one side from the other, over and over again, while trying to get your second arm inside. I miss waterproof zippers, double flap closures, and snaps. But apparently they aren't available any more.

Sorry for my rant. I feel better now (until the next time I try to put my shell on in the wind). Pete

[dannc]

Originally Posted by onestepcsy37

Anybody try Frogg Toggs?

We bought a Frogg Toggs jacket for one of the kids who went hiking and camping for a week in the mountains. It held up and was affordable. We did not want to spend a bunch of money on a rain jacket that would be too small by the end of the year, if not end of the summer.

Some of the reviews on some of the different Frogg Toggs model lines were pretty bad. Sleeves falling off type of stuff. Some of the Frogg Toggs seem to be made of Tyvek which is why it can be so cheap.

I happen to be needing a new rain jacket. My old $300! 20 year old GoreTex jacket has issues. We have redone the water repellant before which sorta worked but some of the seam tapes have pulled loose. I was going to order a new jacket to night from Carhart but I guess I will look into the 303 product.

I think there are lawsuit(s) with Goretex over their behavior in the market place. In the past, companies that tried to use non Goretex fabrics would be cut off from Goretex. The companies were forced to stay with Goretex which prevented any competition.

Later,
Dan

[delmarrey]

Modern rain gear it to be perdy not functional!

I get mine at the industrial suppliers. Comes with reflector tape and all.

[jwing]

While I was writing my response, "ontherocks83" posted his. Mine says pretty much the same, but I'll leave it up anyway. Arc'teryx makes great gear.


My experience with rain gear is variable.

1. There are pieces that leak and/or seep through, even if equipped with Goretex.
2. The breathe-ability of Goretex is overrated. Note: Goretex allows water vapor to pass, but blocks liquid water. So your sweat has to be evaporated before it can pass through Goretex. It takes some experimenting to know which combination of undergarments work in particular situations.
3. Seams are vulnerable. Many manufacturers are poor at sealing seams, or don't at all. If you have leaky seams, buy some seam seal tape and do it yourself.
4. The quality of the outer layer is very important. I'm not a fabric expert, but I think it has to do with the tightness of the weave and the material of the fabric. In my experience, fabric that is better at repelling water is less breatheable.
5. The quality of the Goretex lamination is also critical. Once the goretex is comprimised, the game is over; you lose. It helps to treat your rain gear gently when you are not using it - like hanging it on clothes hangers instead of cramming in a pile.
6. The quality of fabric, the care in assembly, and the efficacy of the design are all decisions made by the manufacturer. What lots of manufacturers understand is that these attributes don't sell lots of pieces. What does sell is: influential people wearing them (that could be friends, or promoted stars of the activitiy - sorry I don't know the sailing stars) and conformance to the latest colors and fashion. As a buyer, you decide what combination is right for you.
7. Back in my whitewater kayaking/backcountry skiing days, being dry meant being alive and being able to stay out longer. I suffered through plenty of crappy clothing until I figured out that some brands do it right all the time. My outerwear eventually ended up all the heaviest duty Patagonia / Lotus.
8. Sometimes brands start out making great gear, but then are sold to corporate types who are committed to $ instead of the sport. The new guys ride on the brand's reputation while making quality cuts that boost the profit margin. It is difficult to keep up with that, so look for pieces that are made by fairly new companies that don't have 100's of models, but do have the technial features that match the sport.

And yes, DWR, like 303, is essential. I put in on new pieces and reapply several times during the season. It works better on high-quality fabric, imagine that!

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I looked online for details and think I am finding two different versions of the 303 Fabric Guard, one specifies with water repellent the other does not. I see different product codes and labels so I am guessing this isn't just missing details in the listing but an actual difference in the product.

So I'm assuming the version with water repellent is the one? to use The Practical Sailor article doesn't mention this detail at all. Is it possible the water repellent additive would be overkill and eliminate the breathability of the fabric?

303 HTFG does not change the breathability.

You want 303 High Tech Fabric Guard


NOT 303 Aerospace Protectant

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by jwing

Sometimes brands start out making great gear, but then are sold to corporate types who are committed to $ instead of the sport. The new guys ride on the brand's reputation while making quality cuts that boost the profit margin.

North Face is a great example of this. Now they do still make some really good technical gear, but much of their company has switched to fashion instead of function.

You make a lot more money selling tons of fashionable jackets to college kids then you do selling expensive to make technical gear to a much smaller number of outdoorsmen. Go to any college campus in the winter and it looks like a North Face store threw up in the common.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Rain gear is not a very straight forward thing. First any type of breathable rain gear is not water proof it is just Highly water resistant. The only wearable completely waterproof gear is rubber but that has the downside of being hot. When looking at rain gear you need to take things into consideration.

This is not exactly true. I have been fully submerged many times in my Kokatat Gore-Tex dry suit. It is a stellar piece of gear that has kept me both bone dry and also breathed well enough to keep up with winter kayaking adventures. It has never allowed a single drop of water into the suit. The rubber gaitors and cuffs are dry and cracking and need to be replaced but it served me well for 11 years of bone dry winter kayaking adventures and never once leaked a drop.

Compare that to my previous non-breathable PVC based Kokatat dry suit and it was a death trap. By the time I took it off every layer underneath was fully saturated. Water came from inside, not outside... Just because it breathes does not mean it will allow water into the garment.

Does anyone remember the old Timberland boot displays from the mid 80's? Probably not but Timberland is a NH company so I know the displays well. It was a clear tube with a Gore-Tex membrane mid way up the tube. In the top of the tube was water in the bottom was air and a small pump. You could pump air into the column and it would bubble up and out through the water. There was never any water that leaked into the lower tube. Some of these displays were active for 3-4 years...

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

This is not exactly true. I have been fully submerged many times in my Kokatat Gore-Tex dry suit. It is a stellar piece of gear that has kept me both bone dry and also breathed well enough to keep up with winter kayaking adventures. It has never allowed a single drop of water into the suit.

Yes in real world practical application you are correct. What I was referring to but didn't elaborate on is breathable membranes are rated in mm of water. A highly waterproof membrane can handle up to 20,000mm or approx 33 feet of water stacked vertically in a 1 inch tube before it would develop enough pressure to leak through. If you can find the jackets rating it will give you an idea on where it falls in the realm of waterproofness.

In actual application does this matter? Well only if you have bought a jacket that you think is very waterproof but is only rated at 6000mm and is only designed to with stand light to moderate rains but not heavy dousing. And yes I know I am splitting hairs here.

Waterproof Rating
Waterproof Rating (mm)Resistance providedWhat it can withstand
0-5,000 mmNo resistance to some resistance to moistureLight rain, dry snow, no pressure
6,000-10,000 mmRainproof and waterproof under light pressureLight rain, average snow, light pressure
11,000-15,000 mmRainproof and waterproof except under high pressure Moderate rain, average snow, light pressure
16,000-20,000 mmRainproof and waterproof under high pressureHeavy rain, wet snow, some pressure
20,000 mm+Rainproof and waterproof under very high pressureHeavy rain, wet snow, high pressure

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Yes in real world practical application you are correct. What I was referring to but didn't elaborate on is breathable membranes are rated in mm of water. A highly waterproof membrane can handle up to 20,000mm or approx 33 feet of water stacked vertically in a 1 inch tube before it would develop enough pressure to leak through. If you can find the jackets rating it will give you an idea on where it falls in the realm of waterproofness.

In actual application does this matter? Well only if you have bought a jacket that you think is very waterproof but is only rated at 6000mm and is only designed to with stand light to moderate rains but not heavy dousing. And yes I know I am splitting hairs here.

Waterproof Rating
Waterproof Rating (mm)Resistance providedWhat it can withstand
0-5,000 mmNo resistance to some resistance to moistureLight rain, dry snow, no pressure
6,000-10,000 mmRainproof and waterproof under light pressureLight rain, average snow, light pressure
11,000-15,000 mmRainproof and waterproof except under high pressure Moderate rain, average snow, light pressure
16,000-20,000 mmRainproof and waterproof under high pressureHeavy rain, wet snow, some pressure
20,000 mm+Rainproof and waterproof under very high pressureHeavy rain, wet snow, high pressure

Absolutely. Here is the best I can find for the old Timberland display but this one is done by Columbia on their Omni-Tech and Omni-Dry vs. Gore-Tex. Gore-Tex is certainly not the most breathable, any one who climbs mountains in the winter knows this, but for a dry suit it is tremendous and for low activity such as crusing in colder climates it also works very well..

I don't know how an Omni-Dry dry suit would work compared to my Kokatat Gore-Tex version, but my guess is it would be more permeable than Gore-Tex but may still remain dry in a roll.... I own an Omni-Dry jacket and it does breathe extremely well. The Columbia jacket though has not been as durable as LL Bean, Patagonia, Arc'Teyrx, Solstice (now defunct), or other brands I own..

I don't wear "sailing gear" and find the design, fit and ease of mobility of most of it extremely poor when compared to winter mountaineering products.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whnlOQwEcJ4

BTW the only tent I will ever own for winter expedition stuff is also waterproof breathable. This single wall tent has literally saved my life a number of times. Even with three guys in it we wake up to no condensation.. Expensive? You bet, but well worth it.

This was on our good weather day while traversing NH's Presidential Range back in February of 2005. When you are that far in, on one of the worst weather mountain ranges in the US, you depend upon your gear being good.

On my boat, with an Espar heater, not so much.... That tent today still performs just as well as it did when I bought it in the 90's......