Butane to Propane conversion success! Stove burns 'em both just fine

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by blueazimuth

Butane and propane and Calor gas use different regulators and different jets in your stove. If you speak to a gas engineer you will be told you must modify the stove. In my experience, i did not notice any difference with stove performance - no need to do a thing to your stove.
However, you must change the regulator as the pressures are very different.
Nor will you be able to get a butane tank filled with propane - it will "cook off" with specular results.

Actually in Europe for some years low pressure butane and low pressure propane use the same 30 millibar regulators. Previously the standard was 28mb for butane and 37 for propane - I suppose so that you would get the same caloric output from either gas with no change in jetting.

In reality, propane in my stove gives somewhat weaker flames at 30mb than butane at the same pressure, but it's not a big deal.

I use butane winter and propane summer, same pressure, same stove, same jets - no problems.

Not by choice - it's just you can't easily buy butane in the Eastern Baltic where I've been spending summers the last four years.

[pjatock]

this post is fantastically encouraging Jim.
I just imported a european VW camper van (from France to Canada) that, similar to your boat, is currently equipped with a butane cooktop burners. Useless in North America so I am working through how to convert it to propane (which I guess is LPG?) and I was starting to despair.
anyway, may I ask you a question?
what was the coupling like on the gas lines to your cooktop?
my current butane setup has:
A) a regulator with a fitting that would attach to a tank (and which would not fit standard propane male thread coupling, so I will replace that.)
B) an orange plastic tube with a female piece that attaches to the regulator (which I can ignore) and a male 1/2" normal thread coupling that attaches to a steel pipe (female) going to the stove.

what size was threaded piece that would attach to your stove? 1/2"

did you have to change the regulator and the line?

Peter

[blueazimuth]

Butane and propane are different liquid gasses (LPG) operating in tanks at different pressures requiring different regulators and technically, different jets.
LNG, Liquid Natural Gas, is a very different animal. It's big advantage over Propane is that it is lighter
than air, therefore safer. Propane can be extremely dangerous, if allowed to accumulate in the bilge but is much less dangerous in a motor home.
The big problem with LNG is its very limited availability. If you sail only within range of LNG filling stations, then LNG may be the way to go.
Imho, propane is fine if the system is proper installationed, and correctly used.
imho butane jets work just fine with my propane. I made no stove modification to any of my EU boat conversations, other than tank and regulator.

Legally, in the US, you will not get a butane tank filled with propane because the butane safety valve "cooks off" at a much lower pressure than the propane, and is quite spectacular to watch...

In the US, you can only get a propane tank filled with propane. Some islands use "cooking gas" which is as close to propane as I can tell.
With projane, you MUST use a propane regular which can be fitted to readily available propane nipples to fit you gas lines - normally 5/16"
An EU engineer, fearing legal consequences, will tell you that you must also switch the jets in your EU stove to US jets to be compatible with the different the pressure from the propane
regulator.
Technically and legally, this is correct under EU regulation: a stove burning butane must have both butane jets and a butane regulator.
However, imho, and only in my personal opinion, a stove with butane jets works just fine with propane and a propane regator.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by blueazimuth

With projane, you MUST use a propane regular which can be fitted to readily available propane .

Not actually the case in Europe, the standard for marine installations is set to 30mb and can be used for either propane or butane.

Google EN12864 Annex M for more details.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by blueazimuth

. . . However, imho, and only in my personal opinion, a stove with butane jets works just fine with propane and a propane regator.

As Conachair has said, butane and propane regulators have now been harmonized in the EU and are all set at .30mb. You don't need to change regulator or the lines. And there is no safety issue in not changing the jets -- just you may feel a slight lack of power using propane on a butane stove.

I would not put propane in a butane bottle, but otherwise I don't think there is any issue in using propane and butane interchangeably, without changing anything, as many European cruisers do. I use propane in the Baltic and butane at home, and I don't even notice any particular difference in the heat. You just need to change the bottle pigtail, which is different in the U.S. anyway.

[hellosailor]

Over the last 50? years something called "Camping Gaz" (trademark) known better in the states as "isobutane" has become very popular in "cartridge" camping stoves. It is a blend of butane (cheap, low pressure) and propane (better in cold wx, higher pressure issues) and proof that the two can co-exist in the same can, same jets, same pressure, given certain limits.

But as others have said, technically you also want different jets which may mean different stove burners. In the rural US, if you buy a gas powered stove or clothes drier you usually get the choice of propane or butane "burners" and fittings for it. It isn't just a matter of swapping hoses and regulators, if you want to do it right. (US/Canada...all same in this case.)

I would bet that if you went to a VW dealer's service desk, they could look up the correct part numbers for you. That camper van will have one set of parts for EU/propane, and a different set for US/butane. If you really want it to cook safely and efficiently...just order the US parts kit. If the parts guy says "I dunno" find another dealer, some of them just don't want to be bothered, but VW *does* have all those numbers in the system.

Or, try the online junkyards, see if you can just pull the whole stove system out of a totalled one. (Any junkyard can put the request online to all of them.)

Yes, it will cost more to do it right. Also, less liability and fewer questions at resale time.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Over the last 50? years something called "Camping Gaz" (trademark) known better in the states as "isobutane" has become very popular in "cartridge" camping stoves. It is a blend of butane (cheap, low pressure) and propane (better in cold wx, higher pressure issues) and proof that the two can co-exist in the same can, same jets, same pressure, given certain limits.

But as others have said, technically you also want different jets which may mean different stove burners. In the rural US, if you buy a gas powered stove or clothes drier you usually get the choice of propane or butane "burners" and fittings for it. It isn't just a matter of swapping hoses and regulators, if you want to do it right. (US/Canada...all same in this case.)

I would bet that if you went to a VW dealer's service desk, they could look up the correct part numbers for you. That camper van will have one set of parts for EU/propane, and a different set for US/butane. If you really want it to cook safely and efficiently...just order the US parts kit. If the parts guy says "I dunno" find another dealer, some of them just don't want to be bothered, but VW *does* have all those numbers in the system.

Or, try the online junkyards, see if you can just pull the whole stove system out of a totalled one. (Any junkyard can put the request online to all of them.)

Yes, it will cost more to do it right. Also, less liability and fewer questions at resale time.

Well, you should go to bigger jets after switching to propane, if you feel a lack of power. Propane has less heat energy than butane, therefore stoves tuned for propane have bigger jets so that you can have more flow to make up the difference. But otherwise there is no need to change jets -- there is no safety issue.

It's somewhat different with bottles -- vapor pressure of propane is about 4x higher than that of butane. So some people say that butane bottles aren't made to take the pressure of propane.

I can't say whether that's true or not, but it's probably a good idea not to mix the bottles.

[hellosailor]

The butane bottles definitely aren't built as strong as the propane bottles.
Isobutane vs Butane vs Propane - Uses - What is Butane? (n-Butane vs i-Butane) - ELGAS - LPG Gas for Home & Business
Another web site that claims propane has a higher energy content and a higher pressure than butane, and other things.
IIRC they were both just burned off as mixed "natural gas" at oil wells. Or separated, piped and sold as "LNG" a liquified natural cas blend of whatever happened to be in the pipes.
In the 30's a lot of municipal gas systems were distributing "coal gas", cracked from coal. Some of those stoves are still around, and today they burn with a cold yellow flame on the new gas mixes. No way to fix them short of buying new stoves, burners are long gone. Many of the old pre-war buildings had piped gas for the refrigerators of the time, as well.

[pjatock]

thank you all.
you are helping me slowly zero in on an approach (if not a perfect solution).

1. the Tank. I can find a 5lb propane tank that would fit under the cabinets. (though it seems that propane is best stored outside and so I could strap a 10lb propane tank under the vehicle chassis.

2. the burners. I expect I can find replacement jets/nozzles if necessary. These seem to be fairly standard (and hopefully standard threaded bits)

the challenge I expect is going to be the connections between the tank and the cooktop.

I currently have a butane regulator and an orange gas hose that I will likely have to replace.
the fuel (propane) tank side (regulator and one end of the hose) should be standard and easy to source.

that leaves the male end that threads into the fixed steel supply tube for the cooktop.

measuring it, it would appear to be 1/2" but at my local hardware store that male 1/2" didn't thread into anything that was marked 1/2" (gas or plumping fittings).

so I am worndering, is it 1/2" with different thread pitch?
or is it some metric diameter close to but slightly off 1/2" (1/2" in metric is 12.7mm. would 13mm be a standard european butane camping stove connector size?)

Hmmm, on remeasuring, it does seem to be slightly bigger than 1/2" more like 13mm.

hard to test this here in Canada, where, while we are ostensibly on Metric, 90% of our hardware parts are still imperial and it would be very hard to find a Metric 13mm female threaded piece to try this in.

if I can figure out what this male piece actually measures, I am sure there are adatptors available that would take connect my NA regulator and hose to the XXmm female European stove feed line.

[pjatock]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As Conachair has said, butane and propane regulators have now been harmonized in the EU and are all set at .30mb. You don't need to change regulator or the lines. And there is no safety issue in not changing the jets -- just you may feel a slight lack of power using propane on a butane stove.

I would not put propane in a butane bottle, but otherwise I don't think there is any issue in using propane and butane interchangeably, without changing anything, as many European cruisers do. I use propane in the Baltic and butane at home, and I don't even notice any particular difference in the heat. You just need to change the bottle pigtail, which is different in the U.S. anyway.

Hmmmm, so maybe all I need is an adapter to let me attach the regulator and hose that came with my European butane setup to a North American propane tank.....

what is a "bottle pigtail"?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by pjatock

Hmmmm, so maybe all I need is an adapter to let me attach the regulator and hose that came with my European butane setup to a North American propane tank.....

what is a "bottle pigtail"?

I would definitely start with that.

The bottle pigtail is the bottle connector, valve, and hose to the regulator. Replace all that.

Does the regulator have a hose barb or a screw-on fitting? If the latter, you could have some metric vs. non-metric issues.

[hellosailor]

For hoses and fittings, especially rubber hoses, you can often find a hydraulic lift or construction equipment rental shop. Those guys have all the good tools to assemble hoses and fittings, and that includes the assemblies for propane powered fork lifts. There are also hydraulic/pressure line shops sitting on the back road behind most airports. A little more expensive--but often they have a "can do" attitude as well as the experience. And when they're aviation certified, they usually take no chances of things going "boom".

[Jim Cate]

Butane and propane are different liquid gasses (LPG) operating in tanks at different pressures requiring different regulators and technically, different jets.
LNG, Liquid Natural Gas, is a very different animal.

Blue Azimuth, as an engineer I'd have expected you to mention that LNG isn't what folks are talking about here. LNG depends upon cryogenic storage to achieve its liquid state, and not so many boats or RVs have that capability!

Recreational use of natural gas depends upon high pressure storage of the methane usually in tanks similar to SCUBA equipment. It isn't liquified, and thus the amount stored in a given volume is much smaller that for LPG, and for many that is a serious drawback. The greater safety of a lighter than air fuel is obvious, but the general success of marine LPG installations is also obvious.

Swapping between gasses that are mostly butane and mostly propane is something that most long range cruisers do without much issue. We have had no problems in the various countries that we have visited... simply had our propane tanks filled with the local butane blend and carried on. Occasionally had to do gravity fills which can be tedious and wasteful, but sitting under a tree waiting for the fuel to drain down to our tank wasn't a bad way to spend a few hours in the Marquesas!

Jim

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

. . Occasionally had to do gravity fills which can be tedious and wasteful, but sitting under a tree waiting for the fuel to drain down to our tank wasn't a bad way to spend a few hours in the Marquesas!

You couldn't get a gravity fill in the UK, Germany, France, Finland, etc. to save your life. It's against about 17,000 pages of EU safety regulations. Bizarrely, it's done routinely in Sweden, of all places, and I have availed myself of this very useful service, which avoids having to change your bottles for yet another proprietary national type.

[pjatock]

[QUOTE=Dockhead;2598251

Does the regulator have a hose barb or a screw-on fitting? If the latter, you could have some metric vs. non-metric issues.[/QUOTE]

A photo of the regulator connector and the other end of the pigtail? is attached.
regulator-end seems to be female inside diameter 20mm, threaded (with a pin in the middle), other end is a male connector, threaded, measures outside diameter 13mm.