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Old 29-07-2016, 08:26   #16
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

Farm Supply places or fuel depots that supply them should have ethanol free gas. Depending on the state some Union 76 stations do too I understand. I thought some marine fuel places were ethanol free ?
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Old 29-07-2016, 08:29   #17
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

Newer engines are designed to run on ethanol mixes. Put leaded gas in and you will only foul up the engine.
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Old 29-07-2016, 08:33   #18
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Farm Supply places or fuel depots that supply them should have ethanol free gas. Depending on the state some Union 76 stations do too I understand. I thought some marine fuel places were ethanol free ?
A few states have outlawed the sale on non ethanol gasoline.
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Old 29-07-2016, 08:41   #19
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

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A few states have outlawed the sale on non ethanol gasoline.
For the road only though right? Not sure.
OP: maybe try calling these guys and see if they have ethanol free gas for agricultural use. http://www.trigas-oil.com/commercial...rcial-fueling/
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Old 29-07-2016, 08:54   #20
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

I think but am not sure, but sale of non ETH (ethanol) fuel is illegal, for any purpose.
That is why Avgas is illegal, way back in the 70's the law stated that the manufacture and sale of leaded gasoline was illegal, it didn't say except for Avgas, it meant gasoline for automobiles, but didn't say that.

Now here in Ga, it's not required to have ETH, but "may" contain up to 10% ETH.
The local Chevron Jobber is selling non ETH fuel to farms etc as he says that the ETH s acts like a solvent and you can't just put it in old tanks, they have to be cleaned, hoses replaced etc, and the average farmer that uses very little gasoline anyway just can't / won't do that, so he sells "pure" gasoline, I used to buy from him for my boat and airplane, carried a 100 gl tank in my truck for that purpose.

The fuel pumped in the pipeline is "pure" gasoline, the ETH is added by the Jobber at his facility, then trucked out, apparently the ETH causes problems in the pipeline.

It's my understanding that ETH's cost is much higher than gasoline is now, that to make economic sense gasoline has to be at $4 a gl, so by adding it, it;s driving the cost of gasoline up.

Maybe Urban myth, I don't know
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Old 29-07-2016, 08:55   #21
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

I've had no problems with 10% ethanol fuel over the last 5 years in my Mercury 5 hp 4 stroke outboard which also has a carburetor.

You might try mixing in some stabilizer with the fuel that sits in your tank over the winter.

I have yet to replace the spark plug in the thing. Also it gets treated pretty bad sometimes only being run for a couple minutes getting my sailboat out of the slip.

Other times, I use it to push my 6600 lb sailboat across the 20 mile bay here which can take between 3-5 hours depending
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Old 29-07-2016, 09:03   #22
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

Yes, there are problems with ethanol in boat engines, but unless you have a very old engine, keeping fresh gas (date your gas cans) and and your fuel/water filter functional in your engine are small prices to pay for not putting that much lead into your engine and into the environment. Yes, the white powder on your hands after 100LL dries on them is lead. The stuff is designed to keep very high compression aviation engines from knocking (detonating) rather than burning. That's actually the definition of "octane" in gas - it used to be determined by testing it in a variable compression single cylinder engine, and seeing how high you could crank the compression up before detonation started. I really can see no point in putting the stuff in a marine engine designed for 87 octane; it won't make it run better, and you've bought into a bunch of lead-related problems. Check BoatUS on E10 - they actually like the stuff once the transition from non-ethanol has been completed.
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Old 29-07-2016, 09:19   #23
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

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100LL has so much lead in it that I used to take lead BBs out of my spark plugs, stuck down beside the ceramic electrode cover, when I cleaned them. My 0-320 Lycoming ran better off 87 octane car gas, for which it was certified. It appeared that long idles contributed.
those little bb,s means the motor is detonating and that is not good too much of that will definitely kill it. Detonation means the fuel is ignited prematurely and is extremely hard on things
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Old 29-07-2016, 09:25   #24
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

[QUOTE=tkeithlu;2177640] The stuff is designed to keep very high compression aviation engines from knocking (detonating) rather than burning.

Actually aircraft have pretty low compression. 7:1 is about the norm. The need for anti knock comes from the need to lean aircraft engines at altitude. So the octane rating for avgas is for "lean" conditions
If you use car gas in your airplane, you are supposed to check for the alcohol content. Alcohol mixes with water and freezes causing your engine to quit. Airplanes get moisture in the their fuel tanks just from climbing and descending.
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Old 29-07-2016, 09:27   #25
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

I did a considerable amount of experimentation with aviation fuel and regular gas both premium and low octane. We would run the aviation fuel through the race car and after a weekend you could look down the intake underneath the air filter and see all that black soot , and that was not there with the lower-octane fuel or the high octane pump gas. We found that the aviation fuel when the temperature was right or a little hot I should say we would get detonation or pre ignition hence the little balls mentioned earlier on the spark plugs we round up with a mixture of sorts depending upon the temperature if it was colder we could run a hundred percent Aviation. If it got too hot the motors ran much better and cooler on pump gas high octane. The aviation fuel did drive up the engine temperature a bit and the carburetors much dirtier. In the end we would normally run a higher octane pump gas & jet carburetors to that.. 4 carbureted stuff get the non ethanol as high and octane as you can get and stick with that. You just can't store that for too long
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Old 29-07-2016, 09:29   #26
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I think but am not sure, but sale of non ETH (ethanol) fuel is illegal, for any purpose.
That is why Avgas is illegal, way back in the 70's the law stated that the manufacture and sale of leaded gasoline was illegal, it didn't say except for Avgas, it meant gasoline for automobiles, but didn't say that.

Now here in Ga, it's not required to have ETH, but "may" contain up to 10% ETH.
The local Chevron Jobber is selling non ETH fuel to farms etc as he says that the ETH s acts like a solvent and you can't just put it in old tanks, they have to be cleaned, hoses replaced etc, and the average farmer that uses very little gasoline anyway just can't / won't do that, so he sells "pure" gasoline, I used to buy from him for my boat and airplane, carried a 100 gl tank in my truck for that purpose.

The fuel pumped in the pipeline is "pure" gasoline, the ETH is added by the Jobber at his facility, then trucked out, apparently the ETH causes problems in the pipeline.

It's my understanding that ETH's cost is much higher than gasoline is now, that to make economic sense gasoline has to be at $4 a gl, so by adding it, it;s driving the cost of gasoline up.

Maybe Urban myth, I don't know
is it illegal to run on the highway but I can buy non-ethanol fuel right down the street from my house here in Florida
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Old 29-07-2016, 09:34   #27
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

I have been using products from here: https://www.bellperformance.com/ Use the Marine Dee-Zol for my '80 Catalina Diesel (too soon to tell if it works), and recently tried Mix-I-Go for a thirteen year old Toro (Briggs and Stratton) that was getting painful to start. To the point of spraying starting fluid in it. It cleaned out everything and back to no more than two pulls to start. Didn't have to tear it down. I think I discovered them on another thread here, so thanks!
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Old 29-07-2016, 09:41   #28
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

Here is a list of the gass stations in MD that sell ethanol free fuel.

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

It's typically about 10% more expensive per gallon here than the mixed stuff, but we prefer it for the boat most of the time.
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Old 29-07-2016, 09:47   #29
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

"Last, ethanol for a fact WILL cause the carburator to gum over and gradually make it start to stall out. And to me an unreliable engine is something that's useless."

This is not a fact, it's supposition. While there are scenarios where ethanol in gas can cause problems, it is possible to avoid them.

If you don't have a lot of water in your gasoline, or an old engine with incompatible materials in the fuel system, you will be fine.

The gum deposits you find in a used carburettor are present in all gasoline. Ethanol is a colorless alcohol which evaporates to leave no residue.

I've posted this advice a dozen times, so here's the thirteenth. The keys to a reliable outboard are :

Use fresh gasoline. When it's more than a month or two old, put it in your car and buy fresh.

Use Stabil in the fuel.

And most importantly, run the carb dry at the end of each use, or even better, drain the carb.

If you follow this advice, the engine will be reliable regardless of use of ethanol or not.

You are going to waste an awful lot of your time running around buying gasoline that's illegal to use in a marine environment.

I am the owner of outboards for 7 years now (Tohatsu 3.5 4 stroke, Yamaha 8hp 2 stroke), all run on ethanol gasoline, never cleaned a carburettor, always start up right away.
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Old 29-07-2016, 09:47   #30
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Re: aviation gas for a 20hp yamaha

So far every comment I have read concerning 100LL in non-aviation use has been correct. Let me add my experience. I make my living at repairing aircraft. I've owned my own business doing this for 26 years. I am an A&P IA- have Com multi Inst Seaplane ratings for those of you who know what that means. Many people have come to me in years past asking me to look at (fix) their high performance snow machine, street bike, car, etc.. after using 100LL for a weekend of fun. The story is always the same. "It was running great at first but then......" The cause was always internal engine lead issues. The worst was lead coating valves. Incorrect valve angles to properly scavenge the high concentration of tetra ethyl lead in 100(cough)LL. Also a little off topic is environmentalist hate people using this stuff around the marine environment. I have a small floatplane that I have to be extra careful while fueling when I travel to distant lakes cause there is always somebody watching for a fuel spill. Rightly so, cause TEL will never leave the environment and will cause lots of damage to developing aquatic species. So, to answer your question, No don't use 100LL. Work with other sources of fuel.
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