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Old 04-03-2014, 13:38   #46
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

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To pull and reinstall an injector is dead simple and easy. Remove the bolt holding the fuel line on it and pull it out - it seats in the block using a rubber grommet and they are readily accessible without removing anything else. I don't know about cleaning one.

Why are you concerned about servicing the injectors?

Mark

Cool, good to hear it's easy. I'm not exactly worried about 'em, I'm just assuming I could have the same (or worse) issues with ethanol as we do now with our current 5-hp 2-stroke... and removing/replacing the carb is kinda of a pain. (Although cleaning, once accessible, is pretty easy.)

I haven't noticed much difference with Sta-Bil, Startron, etc. About 3 weeks of storage has become my limit. Gum and varnish haven't been the problem; it's been more about water... and I think free achohol after phase separation.

OTOH, I am admittedly part of the problem; I simply need to use the motor more often, or recycle old gas for fresh more often.

No air in a fuel injected system? Isn't there a vent on the gas tank?

The other motor on my short list is the Lehr 15-hp propane model, only just now being introduced. Pros and cons for each, so I'm just trying to learn as many of the cons in advance as possible

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Old 04-03-2014, 15:44   #47
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

If you are cruising outside the US, finding and acquiring propane is not a commonly simple thing. And you won't be able to borrow a gallon in a pinch. Let alone that much of the "propane" sold outside the US is varying mixtures of butane, if not pure butane. I don't know how that effects the Lehr.

If you are staying mainly in the US, then abundant pure propane is almost everywhere.

Mark
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Old 04-03-2014, 16:01   #48
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

Fuel density, if I'm using the term correctly is lower for propane, meaning it takes more than a gallon of propane to equal one gallon of gasoline BTU wise.
Of course the fuel tank has a vent, but unless I'm mistaken the fuel left in the motor is essentially "sealed" meaning no vent and therefore no contact with the atmoshpere.
I have no problem finding ethanol free fuel, but still use Sta-Bil. I leave my Center console tank full for months at a time and have done so for years with no issues,
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Old 04-03-2014, 18:35   #49
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

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Sure, I have nothing else going on at the moment - by the time I get done handling it, it will only be one thick page long anyway…

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If it makes you feel good: I ordered 75 yards of fiberglass cloth too
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Old 04-03-2014, 20:06   #50
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

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If it makes you feel good: I ordered 75 yards of fiberglass cloth too
Finally getting around to that reupholstering project?

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Old 04-03-2014, 20:36   #51
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

Mark, I don't have another boat yet, though I certainly hope to have one. It's going to be used, and I don't know if it's going to come with a dinghy and outboard or what. But whatever it is I really appreciate you being a guinea pig on the Suzuki. My experience with Suzuki's is that they tend to make things lighter/cheaper/less robust than Yamaha or Honda. After reading all this, I still think that Suzuki would be a great choice. Thanks for the input from everybody else also.
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Old 05-03-2014, 05:55   #52
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

Well I must admit that I could not imagine another outboard taking the abuse and giving the service that our 1998 Honda 4-stroke did. Given how we used it, and the fact that it required virtually no maintenance from me ever, I am still amazed whenever I see it go by pushing the panga we sold it to.

However, our cruising experience with other people's newer 4-stroke Hondas and Yamahas do not show them to be less robust than any other engines. The Hondas commonly seem to have frequent carburetor problems (always cured by cleaning the carb), while the Yamahas commonly seem to have some other type of running problem not related to the carb and extremely difficult to diagnose/fix. And the Yamahas are very heavy engines.

So we decided "what the heck" and chose to jump on the first train heading into the future of these small outboards. I think in the near future you will see the rest of them start to bring their bigger engine fuel injection and electronic control down into their smaller ranges like Suzuki did. Makes perfect performance and profit sense - as has been noted in this thread, a single engine of this type can be used for a wider range of models simply by programming the computer differently, so less manufacturing tooling, less different parts and packaging, etc.

But who knows? By the time you are looking for a new outboard, I may be back on here warning everyone away from the Suzuki!

Mark
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Old 05-03-2014, 08:51   #53
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

Chris, like you I don't use my outboard often enough to prevent carb problems. I made the switch to propane and haven't looked back. Mine is only a little 2.5 but I love how easy it is to start, even after sitting a few months.

I got to play with a Lehr 15 at the boat show">Miami boat show last month. It looks well made to me. The one draw back to the 15 is it will want to be fed liquid propane at high speed.

I'm building a plywood stitch and glue skiff that I plan to put a Lehr 15 on. I'll use a forklift tank mounted horizontally under the middle seat. You can also get liquid propane by turning a regular tank upside down. I wouldn't leave a tank upside down when you're not using it. There is a safety issue with the over pressure valve in case of a fire when the tank is upside down.

At the show we talked some about the butane issue. The Lehr guys think it will run fine on mixtures of up to 40% butane. More than that and you'd have to adjust the fuel / air mixture, which is not hard to do.

I'm expecting to have the Lehr 15 in my store near the end of the month maybe early next month.
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Old 05-03-2014, 10:20   #54
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

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Chris, like you I don't use my outboard often enough to prevent carb problems. I made the switch to propane and haven't looked back. Mine is only a little 2.5 but I love how easy it is to start, even after sitting a few months.

I got to play with a Lehr 15 at the Miami boat show last month. It looks well made to me. The one draw back to the 15 is it will want to be fed liquid propane at high speed.

I'm building a plywood stitch and glue skiff that I plan to put a Lehr 15 on. I'll use a forklift tank mounted horizontally under the middle seat. You can also get liquid propane by turning a regular tank upside down. I wouldn't leave a tank upside down when you're not using it. There is a safety issue with the over pressure valve in case of a fire when the tank is upside down.

At the show we talked some about the butane issue. The Lehr guys think it will run fine on mixtures of up to 40% butane. More than that and you'd have to adjust the fuel / air mixture, which is not hard to do.

I'm expecting to have the Lehr 15 in my store near the end of the month maybe early next month.
I was under the impression that modern propane tanks had an arm inside that closed the opening if the tank was far off of vertical. (side or upside down).
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Old 05-03-2014, 12:45   #55
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

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If you are cruising outside the US, finding and acquiring propane is not a commonly simple thing. And you won't be able to borrow a gallon in a pinch. Let alone that much of the "propane" sold outside the US is varying mixtures of butane, if not pure butane. I don't know how that effects the Lehr.

If you are staying mainly in the US, then abundant pure propane is almost everywhere.

Mark
Yep, what I'd call one of the cons for propane. Even around here, propane isn't available at any marine fuel docks that I know of. Realistically, though, our cruising ground is the relatively benign Chesapeake, not all that difficult to solve... and I could always invoke Plan B at some later date if we go further afield.

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So we decided "what the heck" and chose to jump on the first train heading into the future of these small outboards. I think in the near future you will see the rest of them start to bring their bigger engine fuel injection and electronic control down into their smaller ranges like Suzuki did. Makes perfect performance and profit sense - as has been noted in this thread, a single engine of this type can be used for a wider range of models simply by programming the computer differently, so less manufacturing tooling, less different parts and packaging, etc.
And yep, that's the other side of my argument with myself


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But whatever it is I really appreciate you being a guinea pig on the Suzuki.

Me too, and especially willingness to answer questions!


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Old 05-03-2014, 12:52   #56
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

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Of course the fuel tank has a vent, but unless I'm mistaken the fuel left in the motor is essentially "sealed" meaning no vent and therefore no contact with the atmoshpere.
I have no problem finding ethanol free fuel, but still use Sta-Bil. I leave my Center console tank full for months at a time and have done so for years with no issues,
OK, just wanted to sure I understood what you meant about the closed system... which does indeed still sound good to me, anyway.

We can't really get ethanol-free here easily. Some leaded Avgas, but that's not all the great a solution. There's a website on the 'net that shows locations, but all the ones listed around here were bogus, out of business, etc.... although I didn't check those out on the coast (too distant for usefulness).

And I haven't had all that much luck with the additives. That could conceivably be related to air remaining in the carb, but running the thing dry etc. after each use or at least before likely storage hasn't brought about any significant change...

-Chris
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Old 05-03-2014, 12:54   #57
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

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The one draw back to the 15 is it will want to be fed liquid propane at high speed.
Interesting. Wouldn't that be relatively easily solved by simply using the appropriate tank that Lehr sells? Or...?

-Chris
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Old 05-03-2014, 12:55   #58
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

Usually 89 Octane Marina fuel is alcohol free, but alcohol testing is real easy to do and all it requires is a canning jar. Here is a link as to how to test
http://www.eaa.org/autofuel/faqs/alcohol_testing.asp
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Old 05-03-2014, 12:57   #59
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

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Usually 89 Octane Marina fuel is alcohol free, but alcohol testing is real easy to do and all it requires is a canning jar. Here is a link as to how to test
EAA - Alcohol Testing

Yeah, apparently not here in MD...

That's without having tested, but OTOH there's those pesky stickers on the pumps...

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Old 05-03-2014, 13:40   #60
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Re: Anyone with the new Suzuki DF15A or DF20A Outboard?

The catch 22 of the stickers is the word MAY contain up to X% Ethanol. It takes gasoline prices of more than $4 a gallon for ETH to even make economic sense, below approximately that, gasoline is cheaper. Problem is many States have mandated it's use, yours may be one of them.
!00LL, is refined illegally actually, since the mandate of the adoption of un-leaded fuels somewhere around the mid to late 70's, Federal law made the manufacture of leaded fuels illegal.

Anyway, many times the ETH content of fuel is almost zero, eventhough the sticker on the pump proclaims it's use. Sometimes stations that advertise ETH free fuel, are lying, their fuel has ETH in it, without testing, you can't be sure.
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