Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-07-2014, 13:43   #121
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

I just like the eleganctrinofication of the name, The SaltyMonkey Swift! SMS!! Indeed!

ps: Love these knot posts. I didn't know there were other knot fanatics on here.
__________________

__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 14:06   #122
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,812
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
ps: Love these knot posts. I didn't know there were other knot fanatics on here.
Me either .
I have been too discreet to previously reveal my long standing love affair. The passion is only deepening though, so I have decided it is time to come out of the closet .

I hear there is an Anchorholics group here. Do you think we should we start a Knotaholics group or just submit to our obsession?
__________________

__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 14:17   #123
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

I was going to ask you to create a sub forum!
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 14:24   #124
Registered User
 
Hydra's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lorient, Brittany, France
Boat: Gib'Sea 302, 30' - Hydra
Posts: 1,229
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Yes, please create a sub forum about ropes, knots and splices.

Alain
__________________
Hydra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 00:52   #125
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,812
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
I was going to ask you to create a sub forum!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
Yes, please create a sub forum about ropes, knots and splices.

Alain
I'll put it to the panel. It would be a very small forum though and runs the risk of being ignored. At least in ''Rigging, Sails and Hoisting" or in "General", knot threads get viewed by people with other interests.

We have had complaints of too many sub forums being difficult to wade through, and attempts have been made to consolidate the least viewed ones. I doubt there will be a lot of enthusiasm creating another small section .
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 00:55   #126
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,812
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Long liveth the ABF loop. It won't slip or be opened by some thief in the night. It will stay true to your needs and like a dog, loyal to its master.
Salty, I am delving and discovering the AB has a tarnished reputation (both the bend and loop). 'Jams at times' seems the most common trait, even occasionally for the bend. Whenever the knot is mentioned in forum discussions someone always pipes up about this, commenting they prefer other options.

I'm trying hard to present a balanced view (cross my heart), but try as I might, I can't find a breathe of scandal about Zepp.

How are you going finding a palm technique you like? Or why don't you practice 69 with Zepp? You may find you will come to enjoy it .
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 07:11   #127
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Or why don't you practice 69 with Zepp? You may find you will come to enjoy it .
The method leaves me aghast in tangles. I must keep my fingers free! A true palm wrap is the best technique so far I have found for tying ANY knot. Wrap around wrap around flip over flip over done! Magic!

Similar to the flip of a bowline - tie a half knot, flip it by tugging the lead, around and through. Knot groupies gasp at this but it works FAST!
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 08:11   #128
Registered User
 
Blue Crab's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hurricane Highway
Boat: Cal 29
Posts: 3,882
pirate Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

A 12 step forum is wot it sounds like to me. I'd also point out that in this discussion, Lassie is using two hands (all she has) while SM is using his very able tail as a third hand. Jes sayin'.
__________________
Blue Crab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 23:01   #129
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,812
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Salty, according to an expert on the knot forum, we are BOTH dressing the Alpine Butterfly incorrectly LOL.

No, the crossing does not have the collars on either side, but the collars need to be splayed open (as the Zepp falls naturally) and if the tails point up they need to be given a clockwise twist, placing the tail and standing parts on opposite sides.

Here is a photo. I am getting quicker - it only took me 10 minutes to dress it properly this time .

Grrrrrrr. Give me Zepp any day!

(Bluey, any tips on how to make it through Step 1?)

Here is the way the Alpine Butterfly apparently needs to be tied, front and back view. I have tied it as a mirror image to my original (can be either way):
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	19.7 KB
ID:	84723  
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 23:43   #130
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,711
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Salty, according to an expert on the knot forum, we are BOTH dressing the Alpine Butterfly incorrectly LOL.
...
if the tails point up they need to be given a clockwise twist, placing the tail and standing parts on opposite sides.
...
Whoa! who is this "expert". I've never seen an ABL or ABB with the standing ends coming out from the side opposite to the respective running end. And I've never seen a diagram/instruction which includes the final twist to make it so.

That's just plain looks wrong.

Edit: See ABOK#1053
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 23:53   #131
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,812
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Whoa! who is this "expert". I've never seen an ABL or ABB with the standing ends coming out from the side opposite to the respective running end. And I've never seen a diagram/instruction which includes the final twist to make it so.

That's just plain looks wrong.
Someone who seems very knowlegeable on tne IGKT forum. No one has piped up disputed what he has said. I have never seen it photos of it tied as he suggests, but he was the one that stated earlier that consensus is sometimes reached "on the all-too-typical parroting" and that "amazing and appalling errors" can be replicated in both text books and online.
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2014, 00:15   #132
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,812
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Whoa! who is this "expert". I've never seen an ABL or ABB with the standing ends coming out from the side opposite to the respective running end. And I've never seen a diagram/instruction which includes the final twist to make it so.

That's just plain looks wrong.

Edit: See ABOK#1053
Just looked up Ashley's. You are right, no twist there (and none on any images I have seen before either).
Edited to add: this is just for the loop though, not the bend (I can't find the bend in Ashley's).

Thanks IslandHopper for the link to the pdf of The Ashley Book of Knots, it has been invaluable. Here it is again if anyone need it:
http://www.prepperinfo.us/pdf/the%20...of%20knots.pdf

Interestingly, ABOK #1053 also shows the X collared like Salty dresses it (not as Grogs and other sources show it). The collars are also open, unlike Grog's images and others I have seen online. The arrangement of the collars (tightened in) may affect jamming and may explain the odd reports received that the bend occasionally jams.

Here is the image from The Ashley Book of Knots (called the Linesman's Bend there):
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	79.7 KB
ID:	84725  
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2014, 00:33   #133
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,812
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Salty......I think the only reason you have no problem dressing it is that you leave it stark naked .
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
I never leave my knots nakid in the wind Sea-lass!
Hmmmm. According to Ashley Salty may be right for the loop (unclear about the bend).

Bottom line is that there are six possible ways of dressing the Alpine Butterfly:
1. X collared with no twist of the tails
2. X collared with tails twisted clockwise
3. X collared with tails twisted anticlockwise
4. X un-collared with no twist of the tails
5. X un-collared with tails twisted clockwise
6. X un-collared with tails twisted anticlockwise

In addition the collars should not be tight.

Ashley (for the loop) and Salty (for both the loop and bend I think) use version 1.
I have been using version 4 for both, but tightening the collars too much (as shown in Grogs and in Wikipedia image).
Knot expert uses version 5 for the bend, I think he dresses it differently for the loop.

I've decided I hate the Alpine Butterfly bend LOL. Never seen so much confusion about how a bend should be dressed!
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2014, 00:38   #134
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,711
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

> Interestingly, ABOK #1053 also shows the X collared like Salty dresses it (not as Grogs and other sources show it).

That's the way mine end up dressed too. If you use the "two turns and tuck" method rather than the "round the palm" method, it seems to fall that way naturally if you just pull the loop and then the ends. No need for a lot of dressing.
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2014, 00:43   #135
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,711
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
...
Knot expert uses version 5 for the bend, I think he dresses it differently for the loop.
That's a bad sign. Same knot - different dressings required?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I've decided I hate the Alpine Butterfly bend LOL. Never seen so much confusion about how a bend should be dressed!
I agree with you, I'm quite happy with the loop on a bight (and the ABOK#1053 dressing), but for a bend or end loop, there are better alternatives.
__________________

__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Name One Thing You Love and One Thing You Hate About Cruising ty.gregory The Sailor's Confessional 54 20-03-2015 12:10
Crew Wanted: Ocean Work Next Week - PNW the Real Thing s/v Beth Crew Archives 116 14-06-2012 14:31
Greatest Thing Since Sliced Maglites Talisker Health, Safety & Related Gear 22 03-01-2011 17:07
A REALLY Stupid Thing Done While Doing a Stupid Thing Dick Pluta The Sailor's Confessional 31 28-04-2010 19:00



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.