Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

accepting that this might be getting a bit silly, we had some folk over this afternoon, and we all wound up tying Zepp bends. (!)

But, Wottie, I really like the perpendicular tails: they tell me the bend was made correctly! such an easy check!

Cheers, all,

A

Hi Ann
So glad you have taken a shine to this bend . Given how effective this knot is, it is surprising that is hasn't become more widely known in the sailing community over the years. I think most of us learn knots from books and sailing lessons (and now the internet, but still mainly from sites that base their knots on books) and it is very, very difficult to alter standard procedures.

Spread the word .

Originally Posted by StuM

It certainly looks as thought the proselytizing is starting to bear fruit.

Now I just need to get SS pushing the Double Overhand in place of the Figure 8 :-)

(You can tie that one by wrapping the line round your hand as well!)

SS or SWL? we are often confused for some reason .

I use the Double Overhand stopper all the time as it just doesn't come undone as easily as the Fig 8 stopper and is just as easy to tie (it was next in line after 'vital' though on the list I gave earlier). Because no load is generally put on stoppers it is dead easy to undo.

Gotta pick your battles though . Standard bends used are DESPERATELY in need of an upgrade and I think encouraging a change here will have far more positive impact than altering which stopper people use.

[StuM]

Oops, my mistake, of course I meant SWL

[Wotname]

Real SS use an Ashley stopper - just sayin'

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

.......

But, Wottie, I really like the perpendicular tails: they tell me the bend was made correctly! such an easy check!

Cheers, all,

A

Granted but sans finesse





If I may say so

[Seaworthy Lass]

Well, I posted a query about dressing the Alpine Butterfly on the International Guild of Knot Tyers forum with the same 4 photos I presented above for dressing the ABB when tied using the palm method (equally valid any method you use to tie it though). The photos were ordered: my way of dressing both sides, then Salty's.

[quote author=Seaworthy link=topic=4950.msg32602#msg32602 date=1404502804]
The Alpine Butterfly bend and loop seem to be able to be dressed two ways (with vertical sections either side of the parallel line or the X). Wikipedia shows the first in its main photo and further down the page it gives the other side of the other version.

To my eye only one looks right (the first), but it does tend to take longer to dress it this way.

Are both versions acceptable?
Are both equally strong?
Are both equally easy to untie after load?[/quote]

Response from an experienced member was as follows:

[quote author=Dan_Lehman link=topic=4950.msg32611#msg32611 date=1404625318]
As I wrote long ago, here (server with images/msg.
seems unable to respond; I have the images myself):

Will it be disquieting to point out that "there are about six ways"
in which the "butterfly" can emerge from its cocoon (excluding Layhands's) ?!
The tails can be "parallel", uncrossed; or they can be crossed,
in either of two ways; and for each of these orientations there
is the choice of which end to load, to make S.Part !

Here are two crossings. We can refer to one overhand component
as taking the "pretzel" form, the other the half- or timber-hitch form.
That shown by David's orange rope takes the timber-hitch form, in the
*split* crossing orientation (my quick term, meaning that this S.Part
doesn't bite & draw its own tail but the opposite side's tail (such as we
can view them qua "tails" for the moment)).

See attached photos, fresh from the SDHCard.
//

And I've added a 3rd pic I think not in orig. post,
but I'm not sure.
In any case, the first is slightly exploded and with
different ropes, to help see the structure.
The 2nd is in one rope, and it is the 1st's orientation
now tightened.
The 3rd presents two crossings-orientations adjacent
for comparison.
As for yours, it looks like you're trying to get
a jammed knot!

As to Which is stronger? there is the standard response
that strength differences won't amount to a significant
matter, but --heck-- it should be obvious enough
that testers haven't even figured out that the knot
in being asymmetric needs testing to address that
aspect as well, so who knows what actually has hit
the test bed and yielded some numbers,
in some cordage, pulled some way, and ... so on.
--dl*
====[/quote]

Basically he does not answer which way of dressing it is "correct", although he states there are about 6 ways possible
(Salty, all the more reason for not using this knot LOL).

No one has done any load tests to see which version of dressing it is strongest (or if all are equal). No real info on which if any will jam.

He does state that one of the two forms I presented "looks like" it will jam, but not which one. I have queried which one he means.

[SaltyMonkey]

Oh that is funny! Love it!

Yes the nature of asymmetry indicates a tie that may not align correctly. But I agree that the load is probably ridiculous for our concerns, unless we a towing a 100 ton barge!

6 ways!! omg!

Still, I'll do my way until we can find a better faster palm method for the ZZeppie. The Zepp is just a prettier knot, thats all, but then again we know what pretty people are like from L.A.

Thanks for looking into this!

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Oh that is funny! Love it!

Yes the nature of asymmetry indicates a tie that may not align correctly. But I agree that the load is probably ridiculous for our concerns, unless we a towing a 100 ton barge!

6 ways!! omg!

Still, I'll do my way until we can find a better faster palm method for the ZZeppie. The Zepp is just a prettier knot, thats all, but then again we know what pretty people are like from L.A.

Thanks for looking into this!

I'm learning lots along the way . Thanks for initiating the dressing issue.

I suspect there is not a big difference between the strength depending on the how the Alpine Butterfly is dressed, but there will be with the tendency to jam.

BTW, I had a look again of the jamming capacity of the AB loop when load was put on the loops and one leg. It makes no difference which end is selected as the standing end. They both result in one of the internal overhands clamping so tight it is akin to being welded on. Have a go just pulling it by hand and you can see this starting to happen.

There has only been one reply to my question on the knot forum. Unusual. Seems to indicate much is unknown about the Alpine Butterfly.

BTW, 'pretty' is not a term I would use for Zepp. 'Elegant' is though. Think NY not LA. 'Elegant' tends to be a hallmark of all the best knots . In Zepp's case it is effortless, natural elegance - no wasted time grooming it to look good.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I'm learning lots along the way . Thanks for initiating the dressing issue............



BTW, 'pretty' is not a term I would use for Zepp. 'Elegant' is though. Think NY not LA. 'Elegant' tends to be a hallmark of all the best knots . In Zepp's case it is effortless, natural elegance - no wasted time grooming it to look good.

Or put another way, "Zepp looks just as good undressed as dressed"


Now more seriously - Thanks SWL for this useful thread

Over the years I have learnt some interesting things about sailing / cruising from CF but this is perhaps the first time I have learnt something really useful.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

?..
Now more seriously - Thanks SWL for this useful thread

Over the years I have learnt some interesting things about sailing / cruising from CF but this is perhaps the first time I have learnt something really useful.

Wot, thank you for the feedback .
I am so pleased I have had a positive impact. That is the main aim for me in starting threads like this.

I have gained a huge amount in the process, so it is a win-win situation .

[Seaworthy Lass]

More on the Alpine Butterfly. This is not a real thread drift, as it is the main serious contender to Zepp (along with Ashleys, the third knot in this quartet of double overhands, but let's not confuse things ).

Reporting back from the knot forum, I am a bit stuck. It is bad form to quote too much from another forum and it is bad form providing links to a forum from another one, so I will just give a summary of discussion so far.

- Both my version of the ABB and Salty's may possibly jam (reason given: "collars look too tight"). I have never seen any other versions presented anywhere, so I am at a loss how this bend is supposed to be dressed.

- It is disturbing reading that regarding knots, some sort of consensus is sometimes reached "on the all-too-typical parroting" and that "amazing and appalling errors" can be replicated in both text books and online. I am now extremely wary of the ABB given this (it was my bend of choice before I discovered that the Zepp was a better alternative).

- The jamming of the AB loop that I found when load is put on the loop, is well known (but this info obviously has not filtered down to texts and popular knot tying websites like Grogs). It is easy to experience if you just put enough load on the AB loop if using it in a Trucker's hitch.

- Interesting comment from Knot4u is worth reproducing:
"I don't like the Butterfly as an end loop. It requires a pre-knot (Overhand) before going around the object. At that point I'd go ahead and tie a Zeppelin Loop - easier to inspect, more secure, less jammy, stronger probably. By the way, the Butterfly Bend is so much different in use and performance than the Butterfly Loop, that it's not really like you're in the same system of knots."

- I read in one of the knot forum discussions that climbers have occasionally reported that the ABB jams, but I can't find this bit now to relay accurately.

So in summary:
- The Alpine Butterfly has lots of potential for jamming (unlike the Zepp).
- There are at least 6 ways of dressing the AB and these will give the knot different characteristics.
- It is not really clear how to best dress the AB bend to minimise the tendency to jam and maximise strength (it is probably not what is currently shown in texts and Grogs etc).
- The AB loop will definitely jam when enough load is applied to the loop.

Everything I have read so far reinforces that the Zepp is superior. Although it is marginally harder to learn tie than the ABB (no harder when it is in your muscle memory) it is super quick to dress - just give a quick yank of the standing ends and it falls into place beautifully. It has no tendency to jam. If you wanted to use the Zepp loop to add to your repertoire, it is definitely superior to the AB loop (I will show how to tie the Zepp loop later).

The Zepp is better. I rest my case .

Let all this discussion not detract from the fact that the little family of double overhand knots (that the Zeppelin and Alpine Butterfly are members of) is dramatically better than what most cruisers are currently using to join 2 lines together. It is so worthwhile learning and regularly practising tying this "new" (nearly century old LOL) bend.

[StuM]

> If you wanted to use the Zepp loop to add to your repertoire, it is definitely superior to the AB loop (I will show how to tie the Zepp loop later).

The one problem with the Zeppelin Loop is that it is an end-tie. I use the ABL as a centre tie.

[SaltyMonkey]

Indeed! I cry "Imposter Syndrome"! Call the knot moderator! Logical very intelligent people can logicalise anything to prove their point. Beware SWL ye might believe your own words and work for Google engineering!

The Zepp is elegant? NY? Like in upper east side snob? No not for me. Give me the proletariat ABF!

Long liveth the ABF loop. It won't slip or be opened by some thief in the night. It will stay true to your needs and like a dog, loyal to its master.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by StuM

The one problem with the Zeppelin Loop is that it is an end-tie. I use the ABL as a centre tie.

Yes, and with such a good end loop already available and well known (the bowline and its more secure variations), I see few instances where the Zepp loop would be needed. It is probably more of interest rather than much else.

I think the ABL as a midline loop is very handy for when a defect in the line needs to be bypassed quickly (I have added an edit to my earlier list to include this). With its awful capacity to jam when load is applied to the loop, I can't see where it is likely to be of much use (the midline bowline would be my choice then).
Where have you found the midline ABL useful?

[SaltyMonkey]

I would like to promote my own invention: The SaltyMonkey Swift.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

The Zepp is elegant? NY? Like in upper east side snob? No not for me. Give me the proletariat ABF!

Long liveth the ABF loop. It won't slip or be opened by some thief in the night. It will stay true to your needs and like a dog, loyal to its master.

I wouldn't want to enter into any east coast vs west coast rivalry . All the best knots have an elegant simplicity though ('pretty' is never how I would describe them). Images are used as logos and avatars. Framed samples often serve as decoration. As well, their beauty is more than just skin deep. They function. The Zepp falls into this category.

Careful that ABL doesn't give you a sharp nip at some stage. Its loyalty is not to any master, but to the mission and accomplishing some missions is simply beyond its capacity

PS The SaltyMonkeySwift bears an uncanny resemblance to lines I occasionally pull out of my locker .