Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-07-2014, 09:50   #91
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

I'm seem to be dressing it correctly, and under load it falls naturally. Im suspicious this knot is double dressable
__________________

__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 09:57   #92
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

on other notes i was able to make a TRUE palm method of the Zepp, but its a bit ugly. The payoff is less dressing needed.
__________________

__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 10:54   #93
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Here is my final report to the AKA (Australian Knot Association) AKA as the AKA (Association of Knots and A-measures):

The Alpine Butterfly benefit an extremely simple palm method that can be used equally for loops and bends with little education and thought or concentration. However, because of a x-ling necessary in the design, it leads to ambiguity on where this x-ling should be placed, and the x-ling in either configuration may lead to unnecessary chafing or risk of slip. To sum up, there may be two equal ways of dressing, but the x-ling is not beneficial and could be detrimental.

The Zepp is not as versatile in tying, and when attempting to use a traditional palm method, can lead to total confusion and insanity. This is especially vulnerable during low alertness. However, the bend, because it doesn't contain any x-ling, is easier to dress (if needed at all) and less prone to safety factors forementioned.

I will continue to experiment with palm methods to see if I can arrange something in the Zepp that makes sense.
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 11:43   #94
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,815
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
I'm seem to be dressing it correctly, and under load it falls naturally. Im suspicious this knot is double dressable
Me too . I have had a very good search. My way of dressing it seems to be the usual way shown, but go have a look at Wikipedia. It shows the way I dress it (parallel lines 'protected', just as Grog does) as its main picture. but go down the page and the next image shows it with the parallel lines unprotected (so the reverse side would have the X protected as you dress it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Here is my final report to the AKA (Australian Knot Association) AKA as the AKA (Association of Knots and A-measures):

The Alpine Butterfly benefit an extremely simple palm method that can be used equally for loops and bends with little education and thought or concentration. However, because of a x-ling necessary in the design, it leads to ambiguity on where this x-ling should be placed, and the x-ling in either configuration may lead to unnecessary chafing or risk of slip. To sum up, there may be two equal ways of dressing, but the x-ling is not beneficial and could be detrimental.
The response will be interesting.
I will pose the same question on the International Guild of Knot Tyers forum.
With the X unprotected (and the parallel lines protected) it is a very beautiful knot. It sits elegantly - not definitive, but a good start.
It is a bit messy looking the way you dress it (sorry, but that is the way it is ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
The Zepp is not as versatile in tying, and when attempting to use a traditional palm method, can lead to total confusion and insanity. This is especially vulnerable during low alertness. However, the bend, because it doesn't contain any x-ling, is easier to dress (if needed at all) and less prone to safety factors forementioned.
I don't know what that 'traditional' palm method is, but the palm method may not be the best for this bend. The 69 method is so easy with a little practice and so reliable (even for thick line that would be awkward wound around your palm), that multiple good methods are not really necessary. 69 is not hard to remember .
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 11:59   #95
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,815
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Salty, does all this confusion about the correct way to dress the Alpine Butterfly Bend (and the fact that it is reported to be slightly weaker than the Zepp), not sway you a little towards seeing that the Zepp may be a better choice? it really just just require a yank of the standing ends to dress the Zepp beautifully each and every time without any possible errors.

I know the ABB is simple to tie, but so is the Zepp with a little practice (I am actually a little quicker with the Zepp after just a short time). The mid and end line loops of the ABB are really of little value to sailors (the well known and widely used bowline and its variations serve us well), particularly given that the midline and endline ABB can jam appallingly if load is put on the loop and one standing end.

SWL
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 12:49   #96
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

I stand my ground by the tying the ABF. I believe its much more easy to tie using the palm method (mine). However, the ABF is NOT symmetrical or as beautiful a knot as we have discovered together when comparing it to the Zepp. The Zepp is beautiful because of its perfect symmetry. Symmetry wins hands down.

Now, the task is to find as simple a method to tie it. I do NOT like the 69 method, nor any method that requires two hand loops such as this. I don't like the ABF tied this way either. Wrap-wrap-tie is my philosophy, by and large because of scientific research in speed and simplicity -- no two hands.

Thus, more experiment is needed to find an elegant tying method to complement the beauty of the Zepp. I'm sure there is a way, but it will take time to explore.

Here is the opinion of Southee

"The Alpine Butterfly Bend, Ashley Bend (ABOK #1452), Hunter's Bend (Rigger's Bend), Shakehands Bend, and Zeppelin Bend (Rosendahl's Bend) are all based on interlocked Overhand Knots, and they're all considered to be strong and secure bends. However, the Alpine Butterfly Bend has some advantages over the other four bends. For one thing, the other four bends are "unforgiving" in the sense that if you pass one end of rope through a loop in the other end of rope from the wrong direction, or if you curve the second end of rope upwards when you should have curved it downwards, or if you cross the second end of rope on top of itself when it should have crossed behind itself, then you won't end up with the bend that you were trying to tie. You might end up with a very unsecure knot. In contrast, the Alpine Butterfly Bend is very forgiving. It doesn't matter which way you pass the second end of rope through the loop in the first end of rope, and it doesn't matter if you curve the two ends of rope upwards or downwards, and it doesn't matter if you cross the two ends of rope on top of or behind the main parts of the ropes. The only thing that matters is that the two ends of rope form interlocked loops which are mirror-images of each other, and that they both pass through the center of the knot together (i.e. in the same direction). This makes the Alpine Butterfly Bend very easy to remember how to tie properly, unlike the other four bends. In addition, Budworth says that the Alpine Butterfly can be pulled in two or four directions at once without distorting or capsizing, and that you can isolate a damaged section of rope by tying an Alpine Butterfly around it, both of which indicate that the Alpine Butterfly Bend is strong and secure. Furthermore, Toss says that the Alpine Butterfly Bend is the strongest of the series of bends in his book, and that it neither slips nor jams, and that it's on a par with the Ashley Bend, which survived 100 pulls in Ashley's testing."
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 13:14   #97
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,815
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Here is the opinion of Southee

"The Alpine Butterfly Bend, Ashley Bend (ABOK #1452), Hunter's Bend (Rigger's Bend), Shakehands Bend, and Zeppelin Bend (Rosendahl's Bend) are all based on interlocked Overhand Knots, and they're all considered to be strong and secure bends. However, the Alpine Butterfly Bend has some advantages over the other four bends. For one thing, the other four bends are "unforgiving" in the sense that if you pass one end of rope through a loop in the other end of rope from the wrong direction, or if you curve the second end of rope upwards when you should have curved it downwards, or if you cross the second end of rope on top of itself when it should have crossed behind itself, then you won't end up with the bend that you were trying to tie. You might end up with a very unsecure knot. In contrast, the Alpine Butterfly Bend is very forgiving. It doesn't matter which way you pass the second end of rope through the loop in the first end of rope, and it doesn't matter if you curve the two ends of rope upwards or downwards, and it doesn't matter if you cross the two ends of rope on top of or behind the main parts of the ropes. The only thing that matters is that the two ends of rope form interlocked loops which are mirror-images of each other, and that they both pass through the center of the knot together (i.e. in the same direction).
This is a big "only thing" LOL. Best to learn to tie it one way repeatedly, so that little or no thought is required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
In addition, Budworth says that the Alpine Butterfly can be pulled in two or four directions at once without distorting or capsizing, and that you can isolate a damaged section of rope by tying an Alpine Butterfly around it, both of which indicate that the Alpine Butterfly Bend is strong and secure. Furthermore, Toss says that the Alpine Butterfly Bend is the strongest of the series of bends in his book, and that it neither slips nor jams, and that it's on a par with the Ashley Bend, which survived 100 pulls in Ashley's testing."
The bit I have highlighted is actually a good reason for learning to tie the AB loop . No disagreement there.

Regarding the 'strongest' there is a lot of dispute about this. I suspect they are very close and that one is not consistently better (it may vary with different diameters or materials.

If there actually are two acceptable ways of dressing the ABB this disturbs me. I bet both are not equally secure. Which one is used in load tests?

Salty, as I said earlier both the ABB and Zepp are excellent knots (the speed of dressing personally puts me off the ABB when the Zepp has no issues with this). Both are significantly better than the alternatives, particularly when an extra final tuck is used when lines are of significantly different diameter.

I think the experts are still arguing about which one is slightly better. Choosing either is a great improvement over what is currently commonly in use. Do we at least have any agreement with that?
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 14:37   #98
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Choosing either is a great improvement over what is currently commonly in use. Do we at least have any agreement with that?
Oh yes, indeed! The Zepp is a beautiful knot, no argument at all. I believe everyone should learn all four of these siblings, and the Zepp shines the best because of it's symmetry.
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 15:18   #99
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,682
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

You know, Salty,

I think some of us are more adept at learning to tie knots than others, and for me, learning the Zeppelin Bend -- I mean REALLY learning it -- will be not an easy process. Therefore, the added difficulty of adding 3 more knots is just (forgive me ) knot on! In addition, I'm not sure at all with my small hands that i would be able to execute the one hand way with line over 10 mm.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 15:19   #100
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,682
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Seaworthy Lass:

The pictures really help me. Thanks.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 18:15   #101
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Wotie has a different opinion - as always ('cause he he can be contrary at times; just ask Mrs Wotie).

I do like the symmetry of the Zepp B but I dislike (no, make that "hate") the way the tails stick out at 90 degrees from the main (load) direction of the line. It's just ugly IMO.
It's so bad that it wants me to revert to the double sheet bend where the tails look so nice.

What will Wotie do???

He will rail at the Lassie for causing such pain and then finally succumb and suck it up and become a true Zepp convert and accept the ugliness as part of it's beauty. A state of mind henceforth known as Zeppelin Zen or ZZ for short.

Some of the heathens out there in CF land will by now be thinking more like Zzz's but never mind, while they snore on, I will quietly sing praises to the Lassie for leading me in from the "Sheet" and showering me in the golden light of Zepp which never needs dressing.










OK, need more coffee to wake up properly - note to self, don't post before second cup...
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 18:21   #102
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
......
Of all the names thrown around, I think 'Asymmetric Zeppelin' is the easiest. Call it what you will, but use it with confidence .
.....
Well, my pet name will be forever "The Laz'be" - pronounce it as you will.







For the slower amongst us.....





The Lassie Asymmetric Zeppelin Bend
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 20:15   #103
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
You know, Salty,

I think some of us are more adept at learning to tie knots than others, and for me, learning the Zeppelin Bend -- I mean REALLY learning it -- will be not an easy process. Therefore, the added difficulty of adding 3 more knots is just (forgive me ) knot on! In addition, I'm not sure at all with my small hands that i would be able to execute the one hand way with line over 10 mm.

Ann
Oh come now, 3 knots is nothing compared to a boat that can go 6!
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2014, 02:32   #104
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,682
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

accepting that this might be getting a bit silly, we had some folk over this afternoon, and we all wound up tying Zepp bends. (!)

But, Wottie, I really like the perpendicular tails: they tell me the bend was made correctly! such an easy check!

Cheers, all,

A
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2014, 03:16   #105
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,712
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
accepting that this might be getting a bit silly, we had some folk over this afternoon, and we all wound up tying Zepp bends. (!)

It certainly looks as thought the proselytizing is starting to bear fruit.

Now I just need to get SS pushing the Double Overhand in place of the Figure 8 :-)

(You can tie that one by wrapping the line round your hand as well!)
__________________

__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Name One Thing You Love and One Thing You Hate About Cruising ty.gregory The Sailor's Confessional 54 20-03-2015 12:10
Crew Wanted: Ocean Work Next Week - PNW the Real Thing s/v Beth Crew Archives 116 14-06-2012 14:31
Greatest Thing Since Sliced Maglites Talisker Health, Safety & Related Gear 22 03-01-2011 17:07
A REALLY Stupid Thing Done While Doing a Stupid Thing Dick Pluta The Sailor's Confessional 31 28-04-2010 19:00



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:23.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.