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Old 02-07-2014, 16:59   #61
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

[QUOTE=Seaworthy Lass;1576349
I have been tying both the bend and loop using the palm method for a long while now (I agree it is very easy, but it does incapacitate one hand).
[/QUOTE]

I 've always used the double twist and tuck round method.
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Old 02-07-2014, 17:20   #62
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

If you use the palm method i use, your fingers of the left hand will be also free - e.g. keep the line away from your tips and in the palm.
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Old 02-07-2014, 17:37   #63
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

G'Day SWL,

Well, you can include me in your list of converts, for I have been able to rapidly learn your version of the Zepp bend, and will be using it where appropriate.

I'm not a "knot-head", and have cruiseheimers, so remembering complicated knots has always been hard for me. I think your technique is retainable, even for me, so thanks.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 03-07-2014, 00:09   #64
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
G'Day SWL,

Well, you can include me in your list of converts, for I have been able to rapidly learn your version of the Zepp bend, and will be using it where appropriate.

I'm not a "knot-head", and have cruiseheimers, so remembering complicated knots has always been hard for me. I think your technique is retainable, even for me, so thanks.

Cheers,

Jim
Very happy you have adapted to it well Jim .

I think I have Cruiseheimers too . If I learn a new knot and then don't try tying it again for a few months, my mind just goes blank. If I relearn and again leave it, same thing. If I occasionally practise while watching a movie it slowly just becomes more and more automatic and I have been very thankful for that when I have needed to tie something in a hurry.

For the Zeppelin, if my method of using just a thumb and forefinger or two for gripping is awkward or too delicate on a pitching boat, then it is easy (but a bit slower for me) to just grip it between all the fingers of your right hand while pushing the tails through from the opposite directions with your left hand:
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Old 03-07-2014, 01:41   #65
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Meanwhile, I will come up with a palm method tonight for the Zepp and see if that makes it easier for anyone than than the 69 method I have shown here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Indeed you jumped the gun. I was thinking and going to ask you to invent a palm method for the zepp.
I had a bit of a play with Zepp last night and came up with this new technique for tying. It may suit some of you better (reverse hands if you are left handed).

Zeppelin bend palm tying method
Step 1:
Place the tail of one line between the third and little finger of your left hand as shown and LIGHTLY wind the standing end around your second the third fingers as shown (it goes anticlockwise to enable you to do this):
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Old 03-07-2014, 01:43   #66
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Zeppelin bend palm tying method
Step 2:
Place the standing end between your first and second fingers as shown and LIGHTLY wind the tail around your second the third fingers as shown (it goes clockwise to enable you to do this):
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Old 03-07-2014, 01:45   #67
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Zeppelin bend palm tying method
Step 3:
With the tail of the second line still in your right hand, bring the fingers of your left hand down to expose the loose loops at the back of your hand, and push the tail through the loops towards you:
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Old 03-07-2014, 01:47   #68
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Zeppelin bend palm tying method
Step 4:
Grip the tail you have just pushed through between your first and second fingers of your left hand to keep it out of the way.
Then pick up the first tail and push it through the loops away from you:
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Old 03-07-2014, 01:48   #69
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Zeppelin bend palm tying method
Step 5:
Remove your left hand carefully and give the standing ends a good tug:
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Old 03-07-2014, 06:21   #70
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Do I hate or love the Lassie

I never ever thought that I would have to learn a new knot at this stage of life. While I knew there were a zquillion knots that I didn't know, I figured the ones I did know would last me through until I had no further need of rope. For a bend, I always took the easy option of the double sheet bend (modified as per SWL's other thread) and accepted it's limitations.

But now the Lassie has blatantly demonstrated the errors of my ways - inadvertently I'm sure - so it behoves me to measure up and learn a better bend. Let's hope the Zepp. is the perfect one as claimed so I never need to experience this stress again.

Progress to date:

I can do the 69 method pretty quickly after a night or two of practice; err... the Zepp bend that is.

So far I don't like the palm method and I reckon it would be difficult to try using say 14 or 16 mm lines - unless one has palms as big as dinner plates .

I am currently practising using method where I do a simple overhand knot in one of the lines and holding it in my left hand. Then I take the other line with my right and work the second overhand knot through the first to achieve the bend. This is working well for me (and my brain) as it visualises the bend as being broken down into it's two base components - it seems to be the way I understand rope work best. Sorry I can't post nice photos Lassie style. She is simply better than me at that stuff.

So far, it is only game playing as I have yet to use the Zepp. in real life. I'm looking forward to a real encounter with it.

Now where is the Lassie's promise to show us the variation for using different size lines?????

This is of real interest to me as I often have call for joining different sized lines. If the truth be known, this is why I started using the double sheet bend in the first place all those years ago.

So bring it on... and I can stop being a hater .
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Old 03-07-2014, 07:11   #71
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Is there a way we can do this and keep the fingers totally free? Similar to the palm wrap method I invoke?

see method 2 here: Bends
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:04   #72
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Do I hate or love the Lassie


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
So far I don't like the palm method and I reckon it would be difficult to try using say 14 or 16 mm lines - unless one has palms as big as dinner plates .
I feel the same way. I actually demonstrated it with thinner 6 mm line (the other was 10 mm). Some methods just seem to click for some people though, so having a range to choose from is useful.

If the lines are quite thick then gripping the loops with all fingers of your right hand in the 69 method works very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Now where is the Lassie's promise to show us the variation for using different size lines?????
Patience Wot. Have a little patience (note this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black LOL). I am giving everyone a chance to practise the ordinary version first before I complicate things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Is there a way we can do this and keep the fingers totally free? Similar to the palm wrap method I invoke?

see method 2 here: Bends
Yes. Simply transfer the 'palm method using fingers' down lower. I just had a go and it works if you grip the first tail between your left thumb and the side of your hand to hold it snuggly while you wind the standing end anticlockwise around your palm. Grip the second line as in the fingers method (above the first line) and wind the tail clockwise around your palm and in the one fluid motion poke it through the the two loops on the back side of your hand towards you. Then just be careful to bring the first tail out to the right side of your hand before poking it through the same loops away from you, as otherwise it gets trapped around the standing end of the second line.
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Old 04-07-2014, 06:41   #73
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Not a knothead... cruiseheimers... I love it!

So SW Lass, your pics are great, but I'm wondering which hand your using to work the camera?



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Old 04-07-2014, 06:46   #74
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Now where is the Lassie's promise to show us the variation for using different size lines?????
I won't keep you in suspense any longer. Here it is :


ZEPP VARIATION FOR LINES OF DIFFERENT DIAMETER

This is oh so easy, it doesn’t really need photos, but I will attach a few, so that it is crystal clear.

All you do is proceed as normal with the Zepp right up until the stage you give the knot a tug to dress it. Then simply tuck the thinner line into the loop again. Couldn’t be simpler .

Various reports from the International Guild of Knot Tyers forum suggest the ordinary version is OK if the lines are not too dissimilar. Numerous comments like this can be found about the ordinary version:
“It does far better with dissimilar ropes than the Sheet Bend, for example, which used to be often touted for being used with dissimilar ropes.”

Apparently the extra tuck works well even with vastly different diameters, even though it produces a very ugly looking knot.

As far as I can find, all this was first discussed in 2010.
No name has been decided on for this knot.
Lots of simple variations of the Zepp are possible, depending on whether you give one tail an extra tuck or both, or whether you double up the initial loop (like it is in a Double Bowline) for one line or both, or combinations of the above. Some people consider the word “Double” should be used for a second tuck of both lines, other consider it more appropriate for a double initial loop for both lines.

Of all the names thrown around, I think 'Asymmetric Zeppelin' is the easiest. Call it what you will, but use it with confidence .

Step 1:
Tie the Zeppelin normally up to the final tug:
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Old 04-07-2014, 06:49   #75
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Step 2:
Tuck the thinner line into the loop again:
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