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Old 02-07-2014, 05:49   #46
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC View Post
Since learning to tie the knot I've been playing around with it and have discovered that it will hold securely even without being drawn up tight. Presumably this would have been a useful characteristic to the ground crews who wouldn't have had much time to make fast their lines.
Yes, just pulling on the standing ends will dress it well, ie applying some load. I would not leave it totally un-tightened though if the load was not being put on instantly, as it could shake loose.

The ease of tightening it so easily is HUGELY in its favour (quick yank, no fussing). The bend I used previously that is very similar in holding power (the Alpine Butterfly bend) is an absolute pain to dress. I needed to fiddle with it for ages every time to get it to sit right.

Have I gained a convert?

Just as if you only learn one single loop, the Bowline is it, if you just learn just one single bend then the Zeppelin should be the one .
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:03   #47
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomashay View Post
Great knot and pictures! So Lass, what are your "6-8 'vital' sailing knots"?
Six knots for sailors that I think are vital (these we should be able to do without thinking and need lots of repetition to become engrained). This will cover you for 90% of knots you need to tie:
Loop: Bowline
Stopper: Figure 8
Hitches: Rolling, Cleat, 'Round turn & two half hitches'
Bend: Zeppelin plus variation for when lines are of different diameter

Nice next additions (take your pick):
Loops:
- Bowline on the bight (for when a midline loop is needed)
- Water bowline (very secure loop, better if line will be loaded and unloaded lightly or in water)
- Figure 8 (nice one for trucker's hitch)
Stopper:
- Double overhand (won't undo as easily as the figure 8 and just as quick)
Hitches:
- Clove (can either undo easily or jam, but useful for light temporary attachment; also the basis for lots of other knots)
- Cow (useful midline hitch, but can both slip and jam)
- Buntline (very secure but jams)
- Truckers (when the standing part needs to be tightened securely down)
- Constrictor (to hold lines from unravelling while whipping or splicing, or for garbage bags)
- Icicle or Klemheist (to attach your snubber more securely than a rolling hitch if you are not using a soft shackle)
- Tugboat (where a line under load needs to be kept around a winch, but you want to take the pressure off the paws)
Bends:
- Sheet bend (very quick, holds reasonably if lines same diameter, load needs to be put on near instantly though and not released as it can shake loose very easily). Edited to add: you may want to move the sheet bend up into the 'vital' section, there are good reasons to do so.
- Fisherman and Double Fisherman (double is super strong, but both versions will jam), used to make a strong loop = Prusik loop
Edited to add:
Shortening knot: Man-o'war sheepshank (don't use an ordinary sheepshank, as it is very unstable if not under the perfect amount of tension)

More for keen knot tyers:
Loops:
- Single handed Bowline (emergency)
- Bowline with a Yosemite finish (not quite as secure as the Water B, but much better than the standard version when the line is being loaded and unloaded before much load has been put on it and it is easier than the Water B).
- Alpine Butterfly (nice midline loop if the load is only being put on the standing ends and the loop is needed to attach something on). Edited to add:Excellent for isolating a damaged section of line
Stoppers:
- Ashley (bulkier than the above)
- Diamond (for soft shackles)
Hitches:
- Carrick (need to know it to learn the Diamond easily),

Note: Double sheet bend does not make an appearance at all. The version I had previously been using (#488) was not the one currently taught (#1434) and the Zeppelin replaces it hands down.
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:08   #48
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

You're knot tying the alpine correctly, that is why you are having issues (looking at pics). Its basically the same knot as the zeppelin except the configuration of the ends, which makes it more versatile when it comes to tying. There are many ways of tying it, including the palm method which is extremely quick. You can also use your double loop method. there are no problems with free palm/fingers

Your list FAILS to include a line shortener such as the Man o War or the sheep shank, which is extremely handy. Sheep shank is tricky and fails, but you should provide a suggestion.
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:13   #49
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
.....
Your list FAILS to include a line shortener such as the Man o War or the sheep shank, which is extremely handy. Sheep shank is tricky and fails, but you should provide a suggestion.
Consider them added .
Probably lots I have forgotten to add and also others personal favourites I have omitted . Let me know what you would like me to add to the list.

(I will photograph my Alpine Butterfly in a sec and you can tell me what is wrong with it).
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:49   #50
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
You're knot tying the alpine correctly, that is why you are having issues (looking at pics). Its basically the same knot as the zeppelin except the configuration of the ends, which makes it more versatile when it comes to tying. There are many ways of tying it, including the palm method which is extremely quick. You can also use your double loop method. there are no problems with free palm/fingers.
I presume you mean I am tying it "incorrectly" if I have issues .

I have been tying both the bend and loop using the palm method for a long while now (I agree it is very easy, but it does incapacitate one hand).

I also agree it is a very nice bend and it can be double tucked like the Zeppelin if lines are of different diameter. I think the AB loop is only useful though if it doesn't need to be undone or it doesn't have much load on it.

Both the ABB bend and loop are a PITA to dress properly (very time consuming, even after a lot of practice with them). I think this is the biggest drawback with the ABB and no such issues exist with the Zeppelin. The Zeppelin wins for this reason .

This is how I tie an ABB shown on both sides:
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:51   #51
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

And this is how I tie the Alpine Butterfly loop (shown on both sides).
It is absolutely identical to the bend except the tails are a loop:
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:58   #52
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

I must congrats you on your most excellent pictures, which I truly admire. Your knot showing skills are uber and I wish more pics online were like this.

I am unsure about the X-side though. I will need to take a go when I get home and compare.

I don't have a problem with the dress, and yes I agree it is very strong, which is why I went to it from a sheet bend. Also, when you have zero sleep, its easier to make a decision on what knot to use when you have only one knot

This is not how I tie the bend using palm method:
Alpine Butterfly Bend | How to tie the Alpine Butterfly Bend | Climbing Knots

This is close but still complex:
The (Alpine) Butterfly Bend

This is how i do it - method 2:
Bends

Here is a one handed loop:

Single-Loop Knots

I still use method #2 since its easier to remember.

Moral: KISS - one technique

For hitches, I suggest the Grip Hitch:

Hitches

Actually, I recommend this page: The Most Useful Rope Knots for the Average Person to Know
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:11   #53
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
I must congrats you on your most excellent pictures, which I truly admire. Your knot showing skills are uber and I wish more pics online were like this.
Thank you. Lovely to find a fellow enthusiast .

Until very recently I used the Alpine Butterfly bend exclusively if lines were the same diameter. I agree it is a lovely bend. The strength is close to the Zeppelin. It ties very easily. The speed of tying if you include dressing is significantly slower though for the ABB and it is near impossible to dress it in the dark. These last two factors are why I think the Zepp is better. If anyone decides they prefer the Alpine Butterfly, I have no issue with that. Both are excellent and far superior to anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
I am unsure about the X-side though. I will need to take a go when I get home and compare.
I had a look at Grog for the ABB:
Alpine Butterfly Bend | How to tie the Alpine Butterfly Bend | Climbing Knots
Click on 'Mirror' to see how the version I tie finishes up. I am very confident I tie it correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
I don't have a problem with the dress, and yes I agree it is very strong, which is why I went to it from a sheet bend.

Also, when you have zero sleep, its easier to make a decision on what knot to use when you have only one knot
......Moral: KISS - one technique
I agree with you 100%. Need to tie 2 lines together? Don't even pause think what bend to select or how to tie it. Just use the Zepp (or ABB if you truly prefer it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
This is how i do it - method 2:
Bends
I have a method I think is lovely. I posted photos of it about a year ago. I will add them here in the next few posts.

People can make up their own mind whether they find the ABB or Zepp easier to tie and dress. The quality of the resulting bend is very similar. I only have a strong objection to anyone saying the ABB is the "only good one" and to learn it as the AB loop is valuable.

As an aside, I am wondering now how much difference it makes to the ability to untie the AB loop after load, opting to make the standing portion either one side or the other - the bend is not symmetrical if you view the reverse side. Maybe one way does not jam and the other does. I have never heard this discussed. I will try it out tomorrow.

Meanwhile, I will come up with a palm method tonight for the Zepp and see if that makes it easier for anyone than than the 69 method I have shown here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
For hitches, I suggest the Grip Hitch:
Hitches
Thanks for the link. I will check it out and research it. I am not familiar with that one.
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:40   #54
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Indeed you jumped the gun. I was thinking and going to ask you to invent a palm method for the zepp. You might come up with some other alternative creative ways to tie your knot (one hand etc).

The Alpine loop and bend -- never had an issue untying it after load. Perhaps its because of the larger diameter synthetic lines. Like the security. Like these 4 related knots and everyone should learn to tie them all.

A couple of additional knots I love love love to tie but never use:
Spanish Bowline
Jury Rig

Lovely knots.

We love knots!
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:48   #55
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

My super simple technique for tying the Alpine Butterfly bend:

I posted these photos and directions about a year ago, but here they are again.
Not really thread drift, as if you are really struggling with the Zeppelin, you may find this easier and this bend is very close in terms of strength.

Step 1:
Wind one loose end around your hand as shown (change hands and reverse it if you are left handed), starting from your palm and winding the line around to grip it between your fingers:
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:49   #56
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Step 2:
Wind the other loose end also starting across your palm and around and grip between two fingers as shown:
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:52   #57
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Step 3:
Bring the 2 loose ends down:
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:54   #58
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Step 4:
Tuck them under:
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:57   #59
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Step 5:
Tighten (ie "dress") so that it looks like the image below. This is the bit I find a pain. In contrast, the standing ends of the Zeppelin just need a good yank to dress it immaculately.

(As you can see I like to leave long tails for security)

My comment a year ago was:
"It is a fantastic knot for securing two lengths of line if you need to be able to undo the knot after load has been applied. It is stronger and more secure than a sheet bend."

I didn't know about the Zeppelin then. I am a fickle lass, loyal to no knot (except perhaps my first) .
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:47   #60
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post

I didn't know about the Zeppelin then. I am a fickle lass, loyal to no knot (except perhaps my first) .
oh for shame. for shame

Lovely method. Me like! Lets see what you come up for a zepp!
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