Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-07-2014, 15:32   #31
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,815
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Don't be fooled by the Zeppelin bend. I know these flavor of knots and the only one out of the 4 siblings any good is the Alpine Butterfly:

Zeppelin
Hunter
Ashley
Alpine Butterfly

Each of these uses similar paired loops depending on direction and blight.

The Alpine is the only one that can be used as a loop, bend, or hitch, and ALSO be incredibly easy to tie. So look that up, see the numerous videos and diagrams and throw away all the other obscure knots you may know. Join the ABA (Alpine Butterfly Association) where you can enjoy various gatherings around the world that celebrate the enormous impact this knot has had on the nautical and climbing community.
The only one that is "any good"?
You have been falsely bewitched by the Alpine Butterfly bend LOL.

I, too, had been lulled by the multiple uses of the ABB (using it up until recently), but are they really of great value? When used as a midline or end line loop where the load is on the loop and one standing end, it jams to the point of needing to be cut off (the pressure is put on one of the overhands and it latches on as if it is welded). I will hunt up a recent photo. It is only as a bend that it can be untied.

We already have a brilliant end/midline knot - the bowline, so the AB's uses here are limited. It is the best bend we need, not the most versatile one.

In terms of security, the best of the 4 bends you list is the Zeppelin.

"Ease of tying" is not really an issue. It takes me 5-6 seconds to tie after a couple of evenings of practice while watching movies.

The clincher for me is that the Zeppelin has the huge advantage that you are able to grip a fixed object for security (with either or both hands) while tying it. You have at least 3 fingers and the palm of both hands free. The ABB leaves one hand totally incapacitated.
__________________

__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014, 15:35   #32
One of Those
 
Canibul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
Boat: Catalac 12M
Posts: 3,209
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post



Ah, a fly fisherman as well. I gave up after a while as I felt it was beneath me pitting wits against a trout . Loved wading the rivers still though and continued to do so with a backpack filled with picnic lunch, current book and in Australia a snake bite kit.



Stairway to Heaven is a classic .
I tried and gave up trout fishing entirely. I only hunt or fish for food, and I detest fresh water fish. I was thinking more yellowfin tuna and wahoo.
__________________

__________________
Expat life in the Devil's Triangle:
http://2gringos.blogspot.com/
Canibul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014, 16:07   #33
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,815
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Salty, here is the Alpine Butterfly as an end loop under load recently. It starts to look pretty ugly when pressure is applied.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	146
Size:	435.9 KB
ID:	84256  
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014, 16:11   #34
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,815
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

And here is my attempt to untie it. One side (the unloaded one) came undone nice and easily. On the other side the overhand was not possible to undo. It even defeated my Marlin spike attempt.

Usually I am not one to swear, but a few words were uttered under my breath. I had to cut the loop off.

As a bend, I would put it in second place compared to the Zeppelin, but it is not a bad alternative. As an end or midline loop (where the load is put on the loop and one standing end) I am never using it again.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	131
Size:	422.1 KB
ID:	84257  
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014, 18:30   #35
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Salty v Lassie...
This is gonna be good

Methinks I'l back the Lassie 'cause she can steer a dam fine good course when the tide is against her...

Mind you ropes and such are in a monkey's DNA... and here we have a salty one at that.


Can't fence sit so I'll go with the nicer avatar...














That's SWL if there is any doubt
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014, 19:13   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Singapore
Boat: Nautitech 40 (2005)
Posts: 100
Images: 3
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Apologies for thread drift but since the knot experts are gathered here..

Can anyone advise if this hitch has a name and why it isn't apparently widely used? I find it the neatest way of attaching a snap-shackle to a halyard if you don't have the time or skill to eye-splice braided line. Hopefully I'm attaching photos of both sides of the same knot.

I like the way it looks and it has never failed me. A buntline hitch is as simple but does not look as tidy..
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	hitch1.jpg
Views:	133
Size:	116.8 KB
ID:	84266   Click image for larger version

Name:	hitch2.jpg
Views:	131
Size:	121.6 KB
ID:	84267  

__________________
chris in SG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2014, 21:37   #37
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,455
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris in SG View Post
Apologies for thread drift but since the knot experts are gathered here..

Can anyone advise if this hitch has a name and why it isn't apparently widely used? I find it the neatest way of attaching a snap-shackle to a halyard if you don't have the time or skill to eye-splice braided line. Hopefully I'm attaching photos of both sides of the same knot.

I like the way it looks and it has never failed me. A buntline hitch is as simple but does not look as tidy..
I was introduced to that hitch whilst installing some Selden equipment. They show it in various applications in their user manuals. We too use it for halyard shackles, etc. Works well, but will jam after heavy loading and be difficult/impossible to untie.

Never heard a proper name for the hitch, so we call it the Selden hitch!

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 03:01   #38
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,815
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

I've finally had a chance to take some photos that may help those of you without enough beer, who are still struggling a little:

This is how my hands grip the line when tying the Zeppelin in mid air (ie the usual way):

Form the 69 (with the loop of the 9 going Up and Under, and the loop of the 6 going the opposite way (down and over) and grip the junction between the thumb and two forefingers of each hand (one forefinger is enough in thinner line):
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	119
Size:	432.9 KB
ID:	84271  
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 03:02   #39
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,815
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Place the 6 over the 9 (forming 69 in sequence) and regrip with your right thumb:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	132
Size:	439.4 KB
ID:	84272  
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 03:03   #40
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,815
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Your left hand is now free to take the tail of the 6 away from you then through the hole towards you:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	130
Size:	417.7 KB
ID:	84273  
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 03:05   #41
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,815
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Without changing grip with your right hand, use your left hand to take the tail of the 9 towards you then through the hole away from you (as you get more comfortable with tying this bend, you will find yourself using your free fingers of your right hand to help get the tails though the hole and this speeds up the process):
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	108
Size:	426.7 KB
ID:	84274  
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 03:14   #42
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,815
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

If you have left the tails long enough you can then just yank on the standing ends. A light tug on the tails will help dress it, but in supple line or an emergency it is not vital.

Just play with the knot for a few evenings while watching TV and you will be surprised how quick and easy it gets. You will need to repeat this regularly with any knot until it is ingrained in "muscle memory", where you no longer need to think of any numbers or which way the tails go.

At the same time run through your sequence of 6-8 "vital" sailing knots. Learn to tie the bowline from all 4 directions and even one handed. Do it while looking at the TV, so you are essentially tying the knots by feel.

Try timing yourself. It is fun to see the rapid improvement when you put yourself under time pressure (5 seconds is my best for the Zeppelin at the moment).
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	104
Size:	419.1 KB
ID:	84275  
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 04:32   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lancashire, UK
Boat: Hunter Channel 31 - Strider
Posts: 18
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Since learning to tie the knot I've been playing around with it and have discovered that it will hold securely even without being drawn up tight. Presumably this would have been a useful characteristic to the ground crews who wouldn't have had much time to make fast their lines.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Zeppelin Bend.jpg
Views:	112
Size:	163.2 KB
ID:	84276   Click image for larger version

Name:	Airship.jpg
Views:	104
Size:	48.7 KB
ID:	84277  

Click image for larger version

Name:	ground crew.jpg
Views:	101
Size:	113.6 KB
ID:	84278  
__________________
JimC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 05:02   #44
Moderator
 
nigel1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Manchester, UK
Boat: Beneteau 473
Posts: 5,185
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I was introduced to that hitch whilst installing some Selden equipment. They show it in various applications in their user manuals. We too use it for halyard shackles, etc. Works well, but will jam after heavy loading and be difficult/impossible to untie.

Never heard a proper name for the hitch, so we call it the Selden hitch!

Jim
Hi Jim and Chris

In the Selden Rigging Info booklet, they call it a Halyard Hitch (there's a surprise).
And you are right about the jamming. I only use it on the outhaul to the clew of the main. Took the main of the other day and had to cut the hitch.

SWL, thanks for the pictures on your new favourite bend, good stuff, one to pass on to my bosun.
__________________
Nigel
Beneteau 473
Manchester, UK
nigel1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 05:42   #45
Dreamer
 
Thomashay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Louisville, KY
Boat: Looking
Posts: 22
Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Great knot and pictures! So Lass, what are your "6-8 'vital' sailing knots"?
__________________

__________________
Thomashay is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Name One Thing You Love and One Thing You Hate About Cruising ty.gregory The Sailor's Confessional 54 20-03-2015 12:10
Crew Wanted: Ocean Work Next Week - PNW the Real Thing s/v Beth Crew Archives 116 14-06-2012 14:31
Greatest Thing Since Sliced Maglites Talisker Health, Safety & Related Gear 22 03-01-2011 17:07
A REALLY Stupid Thing Done While Doing a Stupid Thing Dick Pluta The Sailor's Confessional 31 28-04-2010 19:00



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:24.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.