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Old 29-07-2014, 21:23   #181
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Or to quote Ashley:

80,81 There are very few knots, possibly less than a dozen, that may be drawn up properly merely by pulling of jerking at the two ends.
There are few more important things to keep in mind than this while knotting.
Other knots must first be tied (formed) and then worked (drawn up into shape). The more elaborate the knot, the more deliberately it must be worked. Give on unconsidered pull and a hopeless tangle is apt to follow.
There are very cases where a totally different knot may result when carelessly pulled....
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Old 29-07-2014, 23:56   #182
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Or to quote Ashley:

80,81 There are very few knots, possibly less than a dozen, that may be drawn up properly merely by pulling of jerking at the two ends.
There are few more important things to keep in mind than this while knotting.
Other knots must first be tied (formed) and then worked (drawn up into shape). The more elaborate the knot, the more deliberately it must be worked. Give on unconsidered pull and a hopeless tangle is apt to follow.
There are very cases where a totally different knot may result when carelessly pulled....
You, sir, are a fountain of useful information! My respect grows.

And as for Ashley, he now has a new disciple

If Ashley was correct (and I have few doubts he was) only a handful of knots can be drawn up properly by jerking at the two ends (Ashley's words, not mine ). Had the Zepp Bend been around in his time, he could have added it to that short list.
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Old 30-07-2014, 10:06   #183
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Thanks for the lesson SWL! I spent hours sitting in the cockpit with two bits of line last night, and today I'm a pro. Can't wait to try it on a towline or for that matter, any number of situations. Will teach it to kids and family members on the next rainy night!
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Old 30-07-2014, 11:59   #184
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomi View Post
Thanks for the lesson SWL! I spent hours sitting in the cockpit with two bits of line last night, and today I'm a pro. Can't wait to try it on a towline or for that matter, any number of situations. Will teach it to kids and family members on the next rainy night!
You're welcome . It is satisfying for me sharing this little gem of a bend. It is amazing it has not come into common use by now.

I tied it again last night on the snubber.

Although it was perfect last time with just a light tighten of the nylon portion after the yank, I tried dressing it a bit tighter this time just to see how much harder it would be to untie. Not as much wind is expected and not for as long, but it will still be an interesting exercise. I suspect you can overdo the dressing with this bend. It helps to have the two "throats" a little open so that they can be pushed back easily when untying it. We will see .
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Old 30-07-2014, 12:01   #185
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

I smell a zeppelinbend bias commission check in here somewhere SWL

So, which has the better service -- esStar or zeppelin?
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Old 30-07-2014, 12:15   #186
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
I smell a zeppelinbend bias commission check in here somewhere SWL
There are often better ways of being paid than by cheque .

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
So, which has the better service -- esStar or zeppelin?
What parameters define "better service"? (regarding knots that is ).
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Old 30-07-2014, 12:31   #187
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
What parameters define "better service"? (regarding knots that is ).
Here its is, you're stuck on an island and you have some ropes you need to tie together, and you are only allowed to remember one knot -- which one would you choose esStar or Zeppelin?
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Old 30-07-2014, 12:32   #188
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Or better yet, two knots go into a bar, only one comes out. Zeppelin or EsStar?
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Old 30-07-2014, 13:21   #189
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Here its is, you're stuck on an island and you have some ropes you need to tie together, and you are only allowed to remember one knot -- which one would you choose esStar or Zeppelin?
Easy question .
The Zepp hands down unless the only line I had was Dyneema.

Just to clarify one thing:
The EStar is a hitch (designed to connect a line to something), so to tie two lines together you would need to tie two of these with their apex's joined.

How secure
As far as I am aware the EStar has not been tested in anything other than Dyneema as the inventer recognised there are better options in non slippery line. Also, if used to join two lines, the tight apex angle would probably result in a much weaker bend if anything other than unsheathed Dyneema was used for the EStar (this is the reason thimbles are used). You did not mention if thimbles were on hand on your island, so the Zepp wins.

Can be undone after load applied
Zepp (I doubt if the EStar could)

Can be tied quickly
Zepp by miles - the EStar is slower and you would need two of these

Can be dressed quickly (ie hand tightened snugly before load is applied)
Zepp again by miles - the EStar needs to be dressed carefully and this is time consuming for this knot.

Other characteristics are similar:
- Will not shake loose easily before load is applied (or between loads)
- Can be used for line of different diameter with no or little modification
- Reasonably easy to tie and remember
- Can be tied in the dark

Doubt if the jury will be out long with the verdict here .
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Old 31-07-2014, 00:05   #190
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Just in case anyone thinks the odd looking configuration in posts #175 & 176 is not a bowline, this is how it looked when it was poked and prodded to rearrange it:
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:05   #191
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
The Zepp hands down unless the only line I had was Dyneema.

Agreed

As far as I am aware the EStar has not been tested in anything other than Dyneema as the inventer recognised there are better options in non slippery line. Also, if used to join two lines, the tight apex angle would probably result in a much weaker bend if anything other than unsheathed Dyneema was used for the EStar (this is the reason thimbles are used).

Actually I have tested it in dacron, just to see what happened. It's ever so slightly stronger than the regular buntline - general ballpark 60% of line tensile. In the same ballpark as the zep. The bend radius is actually not very much of a concern because it's in a loop where the load is cut in half.

It is harder to tie and to untie and (As a 'bend') is a bigger knot than the zep. It might be a tad more secure in snatching cyclic loading situations (I don't have a really good way to test that but did do some repeating drop tests), but if dressed correctly the zep does have a reputation for being quite secure.
......
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Old 03-08-2014, 23:31   #192
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I tied it again last night on the snubber.

Although it was perfect last time with just a light tighten of the nylon portion after the yank, I tried dressing it a bit tighter this time just to see how much harder it would be to untie. Not as much wind is expected and not for as long, but it will still be an interesting exercise. I suspect you can overdo the dressing with this bend. It helps to have the two "throats" a little open so that they can be pushed back easily when untying it. We will see .
The latest Zepp bend tied to extend the snubber so extra chain could be deployed in a tight anchorage did not sustain quite as much load as the first, not was it for as long (roughly 20-25 knots for 12 hours, instead of 25-35 for 48 hours). Both times the initial load was applied very quickly.

The extra tightening made no difference in the ease of untying, although with the stiff line it could not be tightened a tremendous amount anyway (small gaps had still been visible in the knot after dressing).

This is how it looked when the extra snubber line was pulled up (pretty well identical to the last time). The tails were shorter as they has just ended up this way. In this application I am not worried about their length, as long as they are long enough to possible allow for slippage as the knot tightens under load:
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Old 03-08-2014, 23:33   #193
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

The easiest technique for undoing it with one hand (nice to know this can be done) is to use your last three fingers to support the knot, then push down the standing end of the side being released with your forefinger and push the 'throat' over the standing end with your thumb:
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Old 03-08-2014, 23:47   #194
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Repeat on the other side. To loosen it completely just push the standing end through the 'throat'. This can be done just with the first and second fingers.

So, based on these experiences, if the line used is stiff and the usual quick yank of the standing ends is not enough to tighten the Zepp bend up, I would suggest spending a few seconds tightening it up a little so it is not overly loose, without spending ages trying to make it as tight as you can. It is unnecessary, as under load it seems to tighten up near identically on its own. The extra tightening by hand made no difference to the untying ability in this particular instance.

This was the other side being loosened:
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Old 05-08-2014, 06:32   #195
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

By the way, Seaworthy, you should get santa to bring you a ceramic knife. It's what all the cool kids are using these days to cut difficult line - very clean easy cuts and no rust.
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