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Old 10-07-2014, 01:02   #136
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Looks like it depends on whether you are left handed or right handed.

Compare ABOK#532 and #1053.



The only difference is the direction of the initial twists, but 532 is show dressed as per SWL and 1053 is shown dressed as per Salty and me.
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Old 10-07-2014, 01:30   #137
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Looks like it depends on whether you are left handed or right handed.

Compare ABOK#532 and #1053.



The only difference is the direction of the initial twists, but 532 is show dressed as per SWL and 1053 is shown dressed as per Salty and me.
I had the same thought .
Just been having a play. I tied 40 AB loops as follows and these were the results:

10 x R over L twist (532) as an end loop (difference is that one end is free to spin around as you twist):
60% X uncollared, loop untwisted

10 x L over R twist (1053) as an end loop:
70% X uncollared, loop untwisted

10 x R over L twist (532) as a mid loop (loop tends to twist around unless treated carefully):
50% X uncollared and loop twisted anticlockwise, 40% X uncollared and loop untwisted (the loop being twisted is the same as the giving the tails a twist)

10 x L over R twist (1053) as a mid loop
40% X uncollared and loop twisted clockwise, 40% X uncollared and loop untwisted

To dress them I just gave the loop a yank then the tails a yank as you suggested. Our yanking technique must be a bit different for me to get the X uncollared 60-80% of the time and for you to get it collared most of the time .
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Old 10-07-2014, 01:39   #138
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Knot expert uses version 5 for the bend, I think he dresses it differently for the loop.
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That's a bad sign. Same knot - different dressings required?
The problem is that the loop behaves VERY differently whether load is put on the standing parts (as it would in the bend), or on one standing part and the loop. I can see if the loop is tied for the latter purpose, then there may well be a different optimum way of dressing it.

I have just been having more of a play with the loop. If you dress it without yanking on the loop first ie just tightening it very loosely then yanking on the standing parts, I get the X uncollared all of the time and if I yank on the loop really hard first, then the X gets collared all of the time . Resolves why we get different results (I tighten the loop only with a light yank and the standing parts with a big one, so most of the time the X is left uncollared for me).
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Old 10-07-2014, 16:22   #139
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

It seems there are more ways to dress the Alpine than there are ways for a monkey to do tricks on a rope.

Anyone know the origin of the Alpine? It seems to be a homespun knot that somehow got itself into the books of knowledge, perhaps parrot fashion!

Clearly (at least to me), it has no place aboard
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Old 10-07-2014, 19:03   #140
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

oh wow. Been away. Awefully knotty confusion all around. Wait! Maybe it is designed this way so you always dress it correctly no matter what?

History here: Butterfly loop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Errors in tying the butterfly loop can produce a similar looking but inferior knot, the so-called "false butterfly", which is prone to slipping. However, some sources suggest this behavior can be exploited purposely for shock absorption.[3] Wright and Magowan called this less secure loop knot the "half-hitch noose".[14]"
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Old 25-07-2014, 04:07   #141
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Zeppelin Bend in action

Time for an action shot of the Zep bend in action underwater doing a sterling job .

Only 15 knots was predicted lasted night, but at 2am continual gusts off the steep hills increased to 20-35 knots and we decided to let a bit more scope out. Rather than hauling up chain to undo the soft shackle on the snubber, it was simpler to attach a bit more line.

So, this was a classic situation of needing to use the best of the best. Although a head torch helped in this instance, I could have tied this knot in the dark. No need to think of what knot was best while a little dopey having been rudely awakened by the rising wind. We needed a knot that was capable of holding our boat securely so that we could go back to sleep. The Zeppelin bend was the obvious choice.

This morning I went for a swim to photograph it. It is still gusting over 25 knots. The tails needn't be quite so long, but I like a little extra piece of mind :
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Old 25-07-2014, 08:45   #142
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pirate Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Dang! Pretty nice work. Ya got a sister?
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Old 25-07-2014, 13:16   #143
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Was there an orchestra playing music, so swifly with string runs of a romantic nature when you tied this knot in the moonlight? Did the camera pan left into a close up of torque on your face, then cut to your tying the knot, but back to your face, a reaction shot filled with accomplishment?
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Old 25-07-2014, 15:33   #144
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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Was there an orchestra playing music, so swifly with string runs of a romantic nature when you tied this knot in the moonlight? Did the camera pan left into a close up of torque on your face, then cut to your tying the knot, but back to your face, a reaction shot filled with accomplishment?
No "string runs of a romantic nature". It was the stormy bit of the William Tell Overture being played .

The moon had not yet risen. The inky sky was splashed with millions of diamonds, as it can only be hundreds of miles away from a major town. The cinematographer was very sadly pitched overboard during one of the violent gusts when the boat gave a sudden lurch. His cries were lost as the wind howled. I can tell you he was VERY glad the Zeppelin was quick to tie, as there was no way his crew were dropping cameras to fling him the life buoy until that knot had been dressed .
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Old 25-07-2014, 16:01   #145
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Another shot of the Zepp taken from nearer to the surface to give a better idea of the forces involved.

The snubber is stretched near horizonal in one of the gusts. The chain on the bottom is the loose bit between the winch and soft shackle on the snubber. Compare the diameter of the nylon under load to that of the tail (same with the first photo) and note how much it has reduced as it stretches. There is serious load on the knot at this point.

The wind is still howling nearly 24 hours after the knot was tied. I will report back how easy it will be to untie. A bowline in the braided line can generally be untied in these conditions. A bowline in the nylon becomes rock hard like cement and needs to be cut off.

Doesn't the Zepp look elegant and unflustered in these conditions :
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Old 25-07-2014, 16:15   #146
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pirate Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Another shot of the Zepp taken from nearer to the surface to give a better idea of the forces involved.

The snubber is stretched near horizonal in one of the gusts. The chain on the bottom is the loose bit between the winch and soft shackle on the snubber. Compare the diameter of the nylon under load to that of the tail (same with the first photo) and note how much it has reduced as it stretches. There is serious load on the knot at this point.
The wind is still howling nearly 24 hours after the knot was tied. I will report back how easy it will be to untie. A bowline in the braided line can generally be untied in these conditions. A bowline in the nylon becomes rock hard like cement and needs to be cut off.

Doesn't the Zepp look elegant and unflustered in these conditions :


Yep. You da man kid.


I'll go back to the beginning and learn this. Elegant and unflustered is wot I'm all about.
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Old 25-07-2014, 16:56   #147
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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Yep. You da man kid.

I'll go back to the beginning and learn this. Elegant and unflustered is wot I'm all about.
This knot is a little beauty isn't it . I think it should be right up there with the bowline when it comes to absolutely vital knots sailors need to know.

If the legend is true, no wonder Rosendahl insisted airships under his command were secured only with this knot ninety odd years ago. The knot has crept into use a little, but it is still vastly unknown. It's about time swashbuckling sailors moved out of the seventeenth century when it comes to knot tying techniques .

PS Sorry to dash your hopes, but my sister gets violently seasick and considers I have rocks in my head for choosing a life at sea. I must have been a changeling .
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Old 25-07-2014, 19:11   #148
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I hear ya sweetie. I've had my share but hope springs eternal ya know.

Swashbuckling ... Put it on my sailcloth shroud. As ya slide me overboard ...
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Old 25-07-2014, 20:58   #149
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

OK, enough of this knot porn! It's not good for my blood pressure
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Old 25-07-2014, 21:17   #150
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Great thread guys. I have only just stumbled across it today and you have all brought out my inner knot geek. I've been playing with trying to work out a hand wrap method. This is what I came up with. I still prefer SWL's 69 method but does this work for you SM? My instructions are for right handed, reverse if you are left handed.

Step 1: Lay both lines across your left hand with standing part to your right.
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