Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-03-2007, 06:43   #1
Registered User
 
KaptainKen's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Vero Beach, Florida
Boat: Endeavour 37 Ketch "Capella"
Posts: 70
Wire rope on a roller furling headsail.

Does anyone have any experience using wire rope on a headsail furler? Is it a good idea? Bad idea?

I presently have a 3/8 inch line operating my ProFurl headsail furler. Under certain conditions (too big a headsail, too much wind) it is very, very difficult to furl the headsail. The 3/8 inch line, being small, is hard to handle and even though I have a fair lead to my genoa winch the line slips on the winch and doesn't fit the self tailer. Larger line (say 5/8, or even 1/2 inch) would be too big to fit on the furler drum.

I can have a line made with stainless wire rope spliced to 5/8 inch line similar to that used for sail halyards. The wire rope would be small enough to fit with enough "wraps" on the furler drum and the double braid would have good "hand" and fit my genoa winch and self tailer too. The greater strength of the wire rope is not an issue, just it's smaller diameter.

The question is: Would it work?
__________________

__________________
KaptainKen
_________

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur." - Anything said in Latin sounds profound
KaptainKen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2007, 07:03   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
FrankZ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Bristol 35 Bellesa
Posts: 13,565
Images: 1
For my furler CDI recommended decoring the part that goes around the drum if a larger size line was required (for comfort). That may be a better option for you.
__________________

__________________
Sing to a sailor's courage, Sing while the elbows bend,
A ruby port your harbor, Raise three sheets to the wind.
......................-=Krynnish drinking song=-
FrankZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2007, 07:18   #3
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
If you're having trouble with a ProFurl on a 37-footer, I think that one of two things is taking place:

1. the furler halyard may not be adjusted properly; or
2. you're trying to furl the sail while it's still powered up.

I have an LC-42 Profurl on a 42' sloop with a big genoa. Only rarely do I have a problem furling it by hand (yes, it takes a big pull) if I've properly spilled enough wind. Very rarely, I take a few turns around a genoa winch to get it started, but then only when I've made sure to depower the genoa and that nothing is jammed. This only happens in a real breeze of wind and when I'm anxious to get the thing furled quickly (I used to sail into Nanny Cay in Tortola which has a 90-degree turn at the marina end of the seawall, so you wanna get the genoa in quickly as you're making that turn).

I would NOT think about a wire rope solution.

As for the handling part, get a pair of sailing gloves :-)

Bill
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2007, 07:21   #4
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Macatawa Michigan
Boat: Amanda Faye 61' Custom Irwin aftcockpit ketch
Posts: 1,414
Images: 106
Did you try "coring" the furling line about 1/3 of the way back from the drum? Doing this will allow you to have a larger line and still have the line fit the drum.
__________________
Gunner
irwinsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2007, 07:45   #5
Registered User
 
KaptainKen's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Vero Beach, Florida
Boat: Endeavour 37 Ketch "Capella"
Posts: 70
Frank & Gunner;

I never thought of "de-coring" part of the line. I like the idea! Cheaper than a wire rope / double braid splice, too.

Thanks for your advice.
__________________
KaptainKen
_________

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur." - Anything said in Latin sounds profound
KaptainKen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2007, 11:23   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Like stated above! If your having trouble bring in your sail then you have other problems.

While sitting at rest, and if your furl turns freely by hand, then it's a operator problem.

I'll provide some links below for more info but when your ready to furl, the boat should be closehauled or on a reach. When pulling in on the furler line the genoa/jib sheets should be loose enough to just allow the clew to flop a little and then easing off as the sail furls up.

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityou...llerreefer.htm

http://www.bluewatercruising.com/rol...headsails.html
__________________
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2007, 11:56   #7
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,594
something's wrong

You should not need to use a winch on the furling line. You've got way too much friction in your system if a winch is required. When was the last time the ball bearings or bushings were cleaned/oiled?
__________________
Randy

Cape Dory 25D Seraph
rtbates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2007, 15:24   #8
Registered User
 
KaptainKen's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Vero Beach, Florida
Boat: Endeavour 37 Ketch "Capella"
Posts: 70
The furler is OK and properly maintained.

The particular incident where the problem manifested itself was at end of afternoon's run from Edgartown to Nantucket. The wind had started very light but had built up to 20 knots or more. The head sail in use was an oversize one that I had recently purchased new. It had been made to fit a Shannon 43 and was really too big for my Endeavour 37 ... about 160 or 170% of the fore triangle. We FLEW from Cape Poge to Nantucket breakwater. When we rounded up, we had a hard time getting the sail in.

There may have been too much friction in the system at the time as the furling line ran through two blocks and a couple deadeyes. The deadeyes have been removed. The furling line now runs through a single block near the bow to a double cheek block near the aft end of the cockpit. There it can be handed direct or can be lead to the genoa winch.

I like Frank and Gunners "de-coreing" suggestion because I will have the OPTION of running the line to a winch. I agree that I shouldn't HAVE to, but I'm not as young as I once was and I often have female crew who have even less upper body strength than I do.

Thanks for your input.
__________________
KaptainKen
_________

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur." - Anything said in Latin sounds profound
KaptainKen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2007, 16:25   #9
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
KaptainKen,

Thanks for the additional info.

Seems like your problem is several-fold:

1. a very large (too large?) genoa in a breeze of wind;
2. excess friction in the system (deadeyes and, I believe, turning block)
3. age and weak crew (not knocking that...I'm 67 myself!).

Normally, furling leads run through small blocks affixed to the lifeline stancions, the final one being a block with a ratchet position which allows "one-way" operation and helps a bit when pulling in by turning only one way.

I believe the turning block may not be a good idea: I have large Schaefer turning blocks (for genoa sheets) too, but these add some friction.

Not sure I like the de-coring idea. I don't want to do anything which would reduce the strength of the furling line (there's one hell of a load on it at times) and, mostly, it's not necessary.

Seems you're well on the way to a solution, though.

Good luck,

Bill
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2007, 03:05   #10
Registered User
 
NoTies's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vanuatu
Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap"
Posts: 1,378
Images: 2
Having to winch in the headsail means you are putting WAY too much load on the furling gear. They are not designed for this and you WILL end up having a catastrophic gear failure one day. It comes down to technique. Try running downwind, slightly on the beam, dump the mainsheet right out to blanket the headsail and enjoy an easy furling experience. I use this technique everytime and did it in 45 knots a couple of days ago on a 50' Lotus no problem at all. You can keep a turn of sheet around the winch to control the clew but it's not usually a problem with this technique.
__________________
Pete

Positively, socially deviant.
NoTies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2007, 04:49   #11
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,577
Images: 240
If you’re certain the furler resistance is NOT due to Halyard Wrap*, you may have too much halyard tension, or a loose forestay, and you need to immediately address the vessels rig tension.
As has been indicated, you should only resort to the use of a winch in extremis, not as a matter of course.

* Halyard Wrap, is the number one issue that cause furling systems to jam or be rotationally resistant. Halyard wrap occurs around the forestay and foil, in the gap between the sheave exit and upper halyard swivel. The bigger the gap, or the shorter the sail, the more likely it is to occur. As the halyard is running parallel to the forestay and foil, the upper half of the swivel tends to rotate with the rest of the sail causing the halyard to wrap around it - hence the term 'halyard wrap'. This can also happen if the halyard is slack and the lead is too close to the foil. It can get caught up on the rotating foil during sail furling. Either way, as it wraps around it slowly binds up tight loading up the furling system so that it is prevented from rotating.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2007, 07:40   #12
Registered User
 
KaptainKen's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Vero Beach, Florida
Boat: Endeavour 37 Ketch "Capella"
Posts: 70
Gord May: I don't think halyard wrap was (or is) an issue. I always check my halyard from the deck with binoculars when I initially raise and furl a head sail. It seems to me that once halyard wrap begins furling becomes impossible; the head sail could never be brought in and mine eventually was.

Re: Forestay tension: I'll look into this. The forestay does not appear to sag too far to leeward, but how far is too far? I have tried tightening up the fore and aft standing rigging but any tighter than is is now it appears to bend the boat; the cabinets below deck won't open and I can't lift the cabin sole floorboards. I may have to get a rigger (with an appropriate tension gauge) to check it out for me.

Is it possible to put too much tension on the halyard as opposed to the forestay?

Pwederell: I like your tip about blanketing the headsail with the main. It appears to be a good technique. I'll give it a try.

Ref: Reduced strength of furling line after "de-coreing"; Well, of course you're right, but 1/2 inch line has way more strength than needed anyway. As FrankZ's CDI furler manufacturer suggested doing so, there must be enough residual strength in the "de-cored" line to do the job. I like the concept if for nothing more than the better "hand" on the portion near the cockpit.

Thanks all for your suggestions.
__________________
KaptainKen
_________

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur." - Anything said in Latin sounds profound
KaptainKen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2007, 08:39   #13
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,577
Images: 240
Forestay Tension:
The furler foil needs a good tight forestay (straight axle) for it to roll on. This is to minimize oscillating as it rotates. Of course, you don’t want the rig tight enough to bend the boat.

Halyard Tension:
Tension the sail just enough to get the wrinkles out of the luff. Excessive tension may cock the halyard swivel that will bind things up. Avoid starting with a tight halyard, and a slack backstay. Tightening the backstay, with an over-tight halyard, could easily rip the furler and/or sail apart.

Lead Angle:
Difficulty furling could be caused by inefficient or poorly-aligned furler line lead blocks, or, most often, because there is too little tension on the furling line when you set the sail, so the turns on the drum are loose causing them to bind under each other when you furl.
The furling line must exit the drum at a 90 degree angle. It helps if the lead block is as far aft of the drum as practicable, so that the angle changes minimally as the turns go up and down on the drum.

Bearings:
Profurl uses stainless bearings, permanently sealing them (and their lubricant) inside a double-lip seal. These, maintenance-free bearings, have been known to fail (bind up).

For more information, try contacting Mark Reuther at Profurl
401 N.E. 8th St., Ft. Laudebdale, Fl 33304
1- 800-272-9511
Tel: 954-760-9511
Fax: 954-763-8790
profurl@worldnet.att.net
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2007, 08:44   #14
Registered User
 
KaptainKen's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Vero Beach, Florida
Boat: Endeavour 37 Ketch "Capella"
Posts: 70
Gord May; Thanks for your further observations. I have probably been guilty of over tightening the head sail halyard. My lead to the roller furler drum is good; to my knowledge overwrap is not a problem.

The boat is on the dry now so it's probably a good time to disassemble the mechanism and inspect the bearings. It's been a while and unless they are "silky-smooth" I'll replace them. Thanks for the Fort Lauderdale contact.

In summery: My wire lead idea is out.

Thankx all.
__________________

__________________
KaptainKen
_________

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur." - Anything said in Latin sounds profound
KaptainKen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
roller furling

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Profurl L31 roller furling Da BigBamboo Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 10 05-09-2007 11:06
Furling Headsail Steve Kidson Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 6 01-02-2007 14:14
"Ohm's Law & Boats" GordMay Construction, Maintenance & Refit 27 20-12-2006 19:59
Obsolete Roller Furling? Jimske Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 4 07-09-2006 12:40
Roller reefing / furling sails BBWolf General Sailing Forum 1 12-11-2003 21:10



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:17.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.