Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-11-2015, 09:43   #31
Registered User
 
LakeSuperior's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Boat: Teak Yawl, 37'
Posts: 1,581
Images: 7
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
We get asked this question a lot.


7. Shock loads. When the boat is in the water, the rig and vessel is far less subject to shock loads as the ability to heel and bob in the water absorbs/sheds the majority of the shock load energy. When the boat is in the cradle, all shock loads (due to windage) have to be absorbed by the rig and vessel, including through the hull to the cradle where it contacts the pads. (Lots of boats are subject to oil-canning, and one can see concentric gelcoat crazing around the pads.)
If the rigging is tensioned it seems like there would be negliable shock impulses (time rate of change of acceleration or jerk) from wind loading or any other sources on the mast/chain plates/hull. With standing rigging tensioned, peak accelerations would be minimal. Wind loads on a bare stick are just not that high. Vibrating rigging could be thought of as providing shock loading. But again if tensioned would be minimal and high frequency so low displacements. What is the shock you are referring to?

Oil-canning stems from point loads. This occurs with an ill-fitting cradle and/or improper loading/positioning of the cradle. For example, my boat loaded on the cradle and tension is minimized on the slings so the hull is supported but all weight is on the keel. I then adjust my pads finger tight. The job of the pads is simply to counteract minimal rotational forces that would lead to the boat tipping over. Finger tight is also important to account for racking of the cradle if the boat is rolled across a floor for inside storage.

If done properly I don't see how one can oil can the hull. Done properly may require extra pads if the hull is structurally weak.
__________________

__________________
LakeSuperior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2015, 10:13   #32
Registered User
 
Sailor Doug's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Lake Erie
Boat: H36
Posts: 384
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

Selden manual clearly states to relieve tension on shrouds for winter storage.

Ps seen a lot of bent furls, broken masthead and steaming lights and pins and wrenches jump in the water. That's been over fourth years. Mast are getting taller and double or triple spreaders make it more fun.
Exception is a keel steeped mast that leaks, a bilge full of frozen water should be avoided.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

__________________
Sailor Doug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2015, 11:06   #33
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 4,036
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
In my experience, some will attempt to justify their laziness or cost savings efforts, while leaving the mast up. In my humble opinion, not unstepping ones mast in the off season, is a false savings.
Why is it that people can't offer their opinion without having to moralize or denigrate others? If you really are an experienced professional, then you know the case for and against mast unstepping shows no clear winner. There are pros and cons on both sides. More than that, there is many decades and 100s of thousands of boats to learn from. If there was a clear "right answer" there is enough data to prove it. No such clear answer exists (as far as I can find).

For the record, I used to remove my masts every year on my 34' ketch (twice the fun), and then on my tall and heavy 37' cutter. When our yard upgraded its travel lift, leaving the mast on became an option. I shifted to dropping every few years, or when I wanted to do work on the stick.

As our yard was a near-complete DIY, I took my own masts off (me and a few friends). Over the years I've directed or assisted in around 100 mast stepping/unsteppings. Not sure if this makes me a "professional", but I can say with some experience that the procedure comes with its own risks. Heck, even storing a mast is not without risk.

So yes, leaving the mast up produces stresses and risks for the boat and for your neighbours. Dropping the mast leads to other risks. In certain circumstances, one option may be the clear winner, but for most sailboat owners, leaving the mast up every few years is clearly not a wrong option -- nor does it suggest they are lazy or cheap.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2015, 19:02   #34
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 1,923
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Why is it that people can't offer their opinion without having to moralize or denigrate others?
Not moralizing, demoralizing, nor denigrating.

Merely stating ulterior motives beyond, "What is best for the boat?" And in my experience, laziness and frugality, are key motivators for not doing what one should do.

I see a lot of boat neglect, damage, and loss of value, for these two reasons.

If you consider only, what is best for the boat, I believe the answer is to unstep.

Of course others have other opinions, and that is why forums like this are so great. The whole of the sailing community is wiser than any one individual.

I acknowledge that there is risk of damage from stepping / unstepping.

If one can't unstep their mast without damaging or losing something, I would suggest hiring a professional and getting more practice (at least annually). ;-)

Many trailer-sailors step and unstep, every time they use their boat. Of course they have smaller and lighter masts, but as soon as you throw mast cranes and trolleys into the picture, its all really the same.

It really isn't that big of a deal, on any size boat, assuming the proper equipment is available.

This is my opinion, which I am entitled to and can state hear for the benefit of all, as can you do with yours.

PS, professionals don't DROP masts as this makes their insurance premiums go up, instead, they lower or unstep them. ;-)

Ramblin Rod
About Sheen Marine
__________________
ramblinrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 02:29   #35
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 4,036
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Not moralizing, demoralizing, nor denigrating.

Merely stating ulterior motives beyond, "What is best for the boat?" And in my experience, laziness and frugality, are key motivators for not doing what one should do.

I see a lot of boat neglect, damage, and loss of value, for these two reasons.

If you consider only, what is best for the boat, I believe the answer is to unstep.
Yes, that is your belief, and that's great. But to say people who don't conform to your belief do so out of laziness or cheapness (which is not a synonym for "frugality"), is a moral judgement. It can't be factual b/c as far as I know, there is no research, studies or stats to back up your opinion. If there is, please point to it.

For example, insurance rates should be higher for those who keep their mast up. Or more likely, policies would demand owners take masts down. After all, insurance companies are not shy in making other demands that reduces their risk. There are hundreds of thousands of cruising boats that come out of the water each year, and which leave their masts up. If there was any hint of added financial risk it would have been long ago noticed by those who pay the bills. This suggests there is no wide spread problem with leaving a mast up, but if you have information (not just opinion) that shows otherwise, I'd definitely love to see it.

I have no problem with you, or anyone else, expressing their opinion. I more appreciate when that opinion appears backed up with real knowledge or experience, as yours appears to. But that does not allow or excuse you from basic civil discourse. And where I'm from, calling someone lazy and cheap is considered an insult.

It would be like me suggesting you are simply self-interested and greedy b/c you demean boaters who don't accept your opinion and buy your services. That is something I would never do ;-)



Why go fast, when you can go slow
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 03:58   #36
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
...

For example, insurance rates should be higher for those who keep their mast up. Or more likely, policies would demand owners take masts down. After all, insurance companies are not shy in making other demands that reduces their risk. There are hundreds of thousands of cruising boats that come out of the water each year, and which leave their masts up. If there was any hint of added financial risk it would have been long ago noticed by those who pay the bills. This suggests there is no wide spread problem with leaving a mast up, but if you have information (not just opinion) that shows otherwise, I'd definitely love to see it.

...
Probably the best argument for the question posed...

__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 04:10   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,413
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

I store in water, mast up, running rigging removed, shrouds loosened. The rig is deck stepped and water ingress is not an issue. Occasionally when I do the spring haul I unstep the mast and fiddle with it... Works fine for 30 yrs...

I don't even understand why so many boats are stored on stands in the winter... except that there are not enough in water slips for them. I visit the boat each week or two to check on things, and do some "projects" inside and getting on and off a boat in a slip for work is a lot easier than one packed into a parking lot of boats on stands. I don't even cover the boat every year... for multiple reasons.
__________________
Sandero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 04:33   #38
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,140
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

So the answer is:

Make your own decision!

Mike, I was equally mildly irritated at the comment regarding laziness. It did grate a little. I did however appreciate the advice offered and had to overlook the comment. 'Surplus to requirements'

Im of the school that stepping the mast is done when a check needs to be made, or every couple of years or so. On the other hand, if the mast is easy to drop and I would be leaving it for 6 months, I might drop it, check it and wrap it away. But then Ive never had to store my boat due to weather.

Hope all is well with you and your enjoying the land cruising till next season.

__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 05:49   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Sarnia, Ontario
Boat: Challenger 7.4
Posts: 42
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

Just want to say that this is the best website I have ever seen. So much knowledge is shared by smart folks of the sea. Our plan is to eventually base ourselves out of Grenada on a 40ft cat but currently sail out of Sarnia. I check this site almost daily for my fix..........df
__________________
earthmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 05:53   #40
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,586
Images: 240
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, DF.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 06:47   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hudson Valley N.Y.
Boat: contessa 32
Posts: 826
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

RE: comment that rigging /chainplates would be strained when mast is left up and cold conditions contract shrouds ignores the fact that cold will also contract the standard aluminum mast most here have, so rigging is to a large degree "self adjusting" for temperature,no?
OK stainless and aluminum contract to a different degree and then there is the trigonometry of the set up, so the engineers here can weigh in now; and while at it they might as well figure wooden masts (oops!) , carbon fiber and ………..wait for it…………….
……..spectra and other high tech rigging. And anyone who has read this far thinking that this thread is dead can now let out a groan.

FWIW: rod rigging and mast up with no problems.

…………………….lov you all…………………………mike………………………………………………………….
__________________
mrohr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 06:59   #42
Registered User
 
Delancey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Miami, FL
Boat: sunk by irma
Posts: 3,464
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

At the Mackinac Bridge bar/museum there was no mention of them having to take the bridge down or to de-rig the suspension cables in the wintertime.
__________________
Delancey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 07:45   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,413
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

What are the main reasons to haul out and store on the hard?
__________________
Sandero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 07:58   #44
Registered User
 
LakeSuperior's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Boat: Teak Yawl, 37'
Posts: 1,581
Images: 7
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
What are the main reasons to haul out and store on the hard?
I can't speak for others but here in the UP of Michigan it is the 200 to 400 inches of snow and the pressure ridges of ice we get in the winter.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Lake Superior Ice Wave Cones 03-02-2014.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	278.9 KB
ID:	112153  
__________________
LakeSuperior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 09:14   #45
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 18
Re: Winter storage: mast up or down ?

Hi All,
I just bought a 22' Santana and the mast was down for moving, I am dreading having to put it up next spring. Granted, I have never done it before, so it will be something that I will have pros do at the marina with me watching. My initial thought is that once I see it done, and hopefully I can help the yard in the process, I should be able to do it with a couple friends in the future. I removed it from the boat completely since I have been working on the hull the past couple months, what would the best way to store it be? I live in the mountains of Colorado and it will be outside, should it be up off the ground on blocks or can I let it sit under my back porch on the ground?
Thanks for any thoughts.
Marty
__________________

__________________
MartinAither is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mast, storage

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mast Up Winter Storage jadamsson Great Lakes 0 29-08-2012 16:53
Get Down, Mast, Get Down! cherrick Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 1 19-07-2009 06:00
Dingy winter storage turkish6 Auxiliary Equipment & Dinghy 1 11-10-2007 03:51
Winter Storage - Champlain Canada Sarah_Crowhurst Marinas 0 12-09-2007 10:11
Winter Storage in Lake Champlain Sarah_Crowhurst General Sailing Forum 0 03-09-2007 12:43



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:27.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.