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Old 01-04-2012, 10:08   #91
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Let's not get all upset.


By Go Boating Now
"I suspect you have very little serious experience here."
Believe what you want. A silly thing to say.

"A . Firstly yes running Jacklines down the middle would be a big help, almost impossible on most yachts."
I didn't say that. I suggested there are a range of answers. My statement was to the effect that one-size-fits-all answers don't. My jackline run on the edge of the cabin trunk rather than the deck, which is a good location on my boat, though perhaps not on others. Down the center, as some have suggested, is not my choice.

"B. Most people find they need to stand at times. But even on your knees I have seen people washed bodily over. (usually takes part of the stanchions out too)."
I didn't say kneel or crawl; I said don't stand tall, which allows the short leg of the tether to be shorter. Crouch sometimes. And that is absolutely good practice. And I'm sure you've seen people bodily washed over. I would suggest the tether may have been too long (wasn't there, don't know). I do know that on cats this can be prevented by short lines since the deck is wide; I was once knocked a complete flip when blasting through a large breaking wave and the tether kept me on the tramp without a bruise. The truth in my very vivid expereince.

"C. The tethers make little difference 3 foot tether in the middle of a typical Jacklines will let u go over."
First, 3-feet is often too long; we're back to the one size fits all problem. My short leg is less than that. If I did go over I would be within reach of the lines and within reach of the crew.

"D. As to recovering someone, your statement is nonsense. Getting a tired frightened people in full wet gear in cold mid Atlantic water back on board is a massive task. After about 10 mins the person in the water cannot hold a rope much less tie a knot. In 20 minutes they are borderline unconscious."
I'm not suggesting that the swimmer does anything; contrary, any good system must assume they are a 200-pound bag of potatoes. Attach another line to the tether, cut the tether loose, and winch them back. Yes, the worse the weather the more massive the task. Though I've never recovered a person this way, I've recovered objects much larger than a person in full conditions, in the winter, single handing. I'm an engineer and when we approach rigging projects (really heavy objects) we never use manpower; the recovery must be planned and be based on repeatable engineering. It must look easy.

"In my direct experience I had to cut the tether or I would have drowned. I now carry a quick release Wichard tether as a result. It proved utterly and completely impossible to get me back on via the route I went over ( I'm 6'4") I cut myself free as under pressure of movement I found (a) I was been dragged under and (b) due to the force I couldn't undo my tether. It was not a pleasant moment."
I don't doubt that for a moment. The truth, which you learned the hard way, is that most quick-release snaps will not under load. I know Practical Sailor is looking into this. I find it staggering and perhaps even irresponsible that the equipment manufacturers sell safety equipment they haven't truly tested. Why call something a quick release when it does not?

"Jacklines are useless, if by whatever system you rig, they allow you to fall overboard. Once overboard they can be a killer. The conventional side deck rigged jacklines are mostly useless. Many rig them and do myself as well on deliveries because it's all I have. But a better system would be pad eyes and double ended tethers."
There is some truth in this. When single handing they are all you have, and I single hand much of the time. If I were racing with many boats around, I'm sure I would sometimes agree it might be safer to do without.

"My comment was not a broad statement it was a carefully considered one based on experience in nasty waters and based on the typical yacht setup of such lines."
"Jacklines don't" is a broad statement. I don't want folks to think that is necessarily true and that they should give up on the concept. It is sometimes true.

____________

Most of the folks reading this forum never sail in cold water or in the winter. Most never single hand. Most avoid storms. I suspect most tethers are used to keep folks near the boat if they trip over their own feet in fair weather, but perhaps at night or with the chute up. For that, tethers are very practical. As for rough conditions, The Volvo race teams seem fully equipped. I'm guessing they know something.

"Most of the folks reading this forum never sail in cold water or in the winter. Most never single hand. Most avoid storms. I suspect most tethers are used to keep folks near the boat if they trip over their own feet in fair weather, but perhaps at night or with the chute up. For that, tethers are very practical. As for rough conditions, The Volvo race teams seem fully equipped. I'm guessing they know something. "


So we're back to each individual needing an individual solution, because some DO sail in winter, and some DO sail in cold water, and a good number single-hand. The water doesn't have to be all that cold to compromise you pretty quickly. The Pacific Ocean is cold, even in the summer close to shore.
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:22   #92
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

[QUOTE=Rakuflames;921349]"Most of the folks reading this forum never sail in cold water or in the winter. Most never single hand. Most avoid storms. I suspect most tethers are used to keep folks near the boat if they trip over their own feet in fair weather, but perhaps at night or with the chute up. For that, tethers are very practical. As for rough conditions, The Volvo race teams seem fully equipped. I'm guessing they know something. "


So we're back to each individual needing an individual solution, because some DO sail in winter, and some DO sail in cold water, and a good number single-hand. The water doesn't have to be all that cold to compromise you pretty quickly. The Pacific Ocean is cold, even in the summer close to shore.


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Old 01-04-2012, 10:25   #93
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

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....Next, while still at five knots, attach a thirty foot line to a two gallon bucket and toss it overboard to fill with water, as you retrieve the bucket, realize that the weight is only twenty pounds and compare that with your weight.

It's better to figure out ways to stay onboard than how to get back onboard! IMHO

Actually, more like 50 pounds (8.328 pounds/gallon and a 5 gallon bucket typically is designed to hold 105% to allow for expansion, then add the mass of the bucket.

But the point is excellent. In fact, at speed it will be impossible to manhandle a swimmer aboard, which is what we know and is no surprise. Look at the drag generated by small drogues:
Sail Delmarva: Drogue and Parachute Sea Anchor Testing: A Summary for Small to Medium Cruising Catamarans
Check out the Small Shark and Sea Brake (click on the 2nd second table to enlarge).

Clearly, the swimmer must be lifted to reduce drag (the recover line should be elevated some amount among the deck) and you've got to slow down.

Better... stay on board. it seem like every year I shorten my tether a little more and that I use the short arm more.
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:06   #94
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Re: Why use flat webbing as jacklines instead of rope?

Another view of West Marine: I like the idea of patronizing local shops, even a chain like WM. Some of the people who work there have boats at my marina, and they are always helpful. If I need a piece of hardware to finish a job, I can count on WM to have better selection and quality than the local hardware stores. One morning after a bad storm, when the whole town was closed for lack of power, my West Marine store was open first thing and provided flashlights for customers to find what they needed. The cash registers were down, but they found a way to operate because boaters needed them that day. On line discounters are useful, but they can't provide that kind of service.
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Old 01-04-2012, 14:47   #95
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

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I would like to comment on the use of climbing flat webbing for jacklines. The main problem with it is that it stretches. It is designed that way so that there is not such a great shock load on your protection when falling. If you take the stretch and combine it with the slack created in the middle of a modest (35') boat I would surmise that with out too much effort you could get the Jack line to stretch near to the side of the boat. I believe it was Beth and Evans who suggested using a high tech small diamediamer low stretch line and running it thru the inexpensive flat webbing. BTW you can buy the flat webbing from an electrical supply store for less money. It is called mule tape. Beth and Evans FAQ 81 on their website talks about their jacklines.
Climber's webbing is not designed to have any stretch to absorb impact. The stretch comes from the rope. The UIAA specifications for webbing only specify strength, not stretch. Having said that, there will be some stretch in the webbing, it just isn't a design parameter, and will likely be similar to that in the jacklines that you buy from WM or wherever.

When you consider the tensile strength of the webbing is 4000 lb, the loads will be way under the values where you'd get much stretch in it. If you pre-wet it and then tie it with a trucker's hitch, you'll be good to go. As other's have been stating, the more important issue is routing and tether length.
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Old 01-04-2012, 15:04   #96
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I second the post above. Webbing does not stretch, especially in the lengths climbers use, a meter for d clips to attach to a fixed point and max a couple meters for an anchor point for a belay. The stretch to protect climbers backs comes from the "dynamic" ropes they use. Assuming they are lead climbing and not top roping...

Regardless, if the webbing is stretching it is not really "stretching" it just hasn't been put under proper tension. As the poster above stated you can put a 3 to 1 in the system easily by throwing a truckers hitch in and then taking tension before putting two hitches in.

Edit: and you would be better off using tubular versus flat webbing as it has a higher tensile and shock load...
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Old 01-04-2012, 17:00   #97
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

Despite what has been said in their defense and I reluctantly admit I use them myself, the conventional jackstay and tether combination is not a good solution. As an experiment clip on , stand on the outside of the rubbing strip and the jackline midpoint. and let go. see how far the whole setup lets you fall. ( I've done it once, I hurt myself so Ill not do it again, but it wasn't as controlled as that).


Thats for good jacklines, Ive seen some where I can lift the mid point 5 feet in the air,.

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Old 01-04-2012, 17:19   #98
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

I agree lets have the full story about the boom!
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Old 01-04-2012, 23:16   #99
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

A friend of mine runs a line from his shrouds to his boom gallows (below the level of the boom) this acts as a chest high life-line. The jack lines I have used in the past all run up the middle of the cabin top and my harness has two tethers, one 3' and one 6'. With the 6' detachable and a replacement 3' for places where I want two 3', like at the helm...sometimes it helps to be tied down on both sides of the cockpit to keep from being thrown around.
By making tethers out of flat webbing you can thread a length of bungee inside so they are retractable (just make sure the webbing reaches its full length before the bungee). Both bungee and webbing are available by the foot at backpacking/climbing stores.
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Old 02-04-2012, 00:12   #100
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

Jacklines? A waste of time, wind resistance, abrasion, energy, and money.
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Old 02-04-2012, 00:40   #101
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

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Jacklines? A waste of time, wind resistance, abrasion, energy, and money.
Wind resistance?how much wind resistance does flat webbing laying on the cabin top give? Nylon webbing isn't very abrasive and total cost is pretty cheap. If the little bit of effort keeps me from being washed over board it's worth it.
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Old 02-04-2012, 01:11   #102
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

sorry, I was thinking of something else.
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Old 04-04-2012, 16:03   #103
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I rarely observe jacklines on catamarans, maybe they think they are unnecessary. We have added webbing jacklines each side from cockpit to mast, then a separate strap from mast to the base of furler on our cat. I guess the only risk might be going over the front because you can't reach the sides when clipped on. We find them very reassuring and definitely not a waste of time.
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Old 04-04-2012, 20:58   #104
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

The last time I was at sea I was just comeing out of the cabin and had not had a chance to clip in when a wave broke over the cabin and sucked me out the hatch...if someone hadn't grabbed me by my ankles I would have gone over. The boat I have now has a pad-eye at the top of the companionway steps so I can clip in before I get topside (it also works an attachment point for a hammock in the cabin).
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Old 17-04-2012, 08:52   #105
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This is a wonderful thread! The answers offer different alternatives and more importantly make you think about it.Too many sailors especially the very experienced, do NOT clip in when they should.
Any suggestions on where to clip in when taking down (or up) jennaker or spinnaker at night?
you are dealing with a sock , lines ,a pole...there is lot going on there and more than once I have seen dangerous tangles happen. But then again it is really exposed and your are in the most unbalanced situation even in calm weather making it even more essential to clip in.
One last thought for those who still resist clipping
"think of your mates and the position they are in if you go over! They have to come back and look for you and if they can't find you or retrieve you they will have to live with that guilt forever".
That said :safe sailing to all!
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