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Old 19-06-2013, 09:01   #46
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Re: Why do sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
On our boat, the lifelines don't have anything to do with staying aboard. We use jacklines and tethers for that. The lifelines, rather, are what we lash the kayaks to on the foredeck, and what we affix the weather cloths to around the cockpit.
thereby verifying their uselessness at their supposed intended function.
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Old 19-06-2013, 09:14   #47
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Re: Why do sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Aside from tradition, which I agree with, the cost of putting up rail is more time consuming, therefore, costly. Most sailboats prior to the mid 60's did not have stantions or wire. Just a toe rail and handholds. We've come a long ways and maybe it's time for a "tradition change". You know if some hotshot cruiser had them on his boat and wrote a popular book, everyone would be running out putting rails on their vessel.

I wouldn't expect either to keep me on the boat. They're just too low. So I'll go with the cheaper visual aid.

I suspect it's easier to attach netting to wire, and I think it probably looks better. I use netting as my physical barrier for staying on the boat. If it's rough, i'm on my hands and knees. The netting is very well secured.

Don't like the looks of it, though. Someone described my boat as a "fat little duck" the other day, and I agree. The boat is fast but she doesn't have sexy lines on the water, and the netting emphasizes that.

Stainless rail would do that even more, and I don't think the netting would look good.
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Old 19-06-2013, 09:17   #48
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Re: Why do sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

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Stainless rail would do that even more, and I don't think the netting would look good.
have a look at the next Amel you see with netting, looks ok, in that no netting looks OK.

The big issue I have is that the standard jackline and thither, simply will not prevent you going over. it will more then likely hang you up on the side or drag you through the water, rigid guardrails will give you a fighting chance. of course it wont look as good!!.
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Old 19-06-2013, 09:25   #49
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Re: Why do sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
have a look at the next Amel you see with netting, looks ok, in that no netting looks OK.

The big issue I have is that the standard jackline and thither, simply will not prevent you going over. it will more then likely hang you up on the side or drag you through the water, rigid guardrails will give you a fighting chance. of course it wont look as good!!.

I'm not convinced guardrails can overcome the laws of physics. Adults' centers of gravity are too high for any guardrail the height of lifelines to stop you. In the one case I know personally of going over, the only thing that saved him was his short tether. He slid halfway through the lifelines; the tether pulled him back.
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Old 19-06-2013, 09:41   #50
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Re: Why do sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

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Originally Posted by savoir View Post
Provided it's anodised and you never drill it.
I agree that a hole in anodized aluminum is asking for some corrosion issues (which is why I have zero anodized aluminum).

What I am recommending is unpainted aluminum that is allowed to form a layer of aluminum oxide. I do know that this "work boat" look (dull, pitted) is unacceptable to a lot of people. However, for someone who can accept the look, they can be assured that uncoated aluminum rails of 6061 T6 will last at least a lifetime - even with holes drilled.

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Old 19-06-2013, 09:51   #51
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Re: Why do Sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

It's a great question... Ithink it has more to do with aesthetics... maybe windage for racing. There are some people who wont have lifelines at all as it deters from the visual lines of the boat. Some people extend the aft pulpit top rail forward to the dodger... I like this... a good solid hand hold going forward. If you can afford the cost, I wouldnt hesitate to go solid rail all the way forward. I'd much rather grab that rail than a lifeline.
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Old 19-06-2013, 09:55   #52
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Re: Why do sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

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Originally Posted by Panope View Post
I agree that a hole in anodized aluminum is asking for some corrosion issues (which is why I have zero anodized aluminum).

What I am recommending is unpainted aluminum that is allowed to form a layer of aluminum oxide. I do know that this "work boat" look (dull, pitted) is unacceptable to a lot of people. However, for someone who can accept the look, they can be assured that uncoated aluminum rails of 6061 T6 will last at least a lifetime - even with holes drilled.

Steve
A hole in non anodized aluminum will be just as bad , if not worse. Anodizing just puts an artificial and more uniform oxide layer on , just like the natural layer that builds up on aluminumexcept better. I built alum boats for years. What I dislike is the grey color that transfrers to everything once uncoated aluminum starts to "dirty up". Gray hands, gray clothes, gray sheets etc.
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Old 19-06-2013, 10:30   #53
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Re: Why do sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
thereby verifying their uselessness at their supposed intended function.
The word, "Lifeline" is misleading. As pointed out earlier, jacklines are more likely to keep you on the boat. The wires can aid in balancing but thats about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I wouldn't expect either to keep me on the boat. They're just too low. So I'll go with the cheaper visual aid.


I suspect it's easier to attach netting to wire, and I think it probably looks better. I use netting as my physical barrier for staying on the boat. If it's rough, i'm on my hands and knees. The netting is very well secured.

Don't like the looks of it, though. Someone described my boat as a "fat little duck" the other day, and I agree. The boat is fast but she doesn't have sexy lines on the water, and the netting emphasizes that.

Stainless rail would do that even more, and I don't think the netting would look good.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder But I can't see why it would be easier to attach netting to wire with wire constantly compensating to the pressure of the lashing. It would seem more likely the rail would work better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I'm not convinced guardrails can overcome the laws of physics. Adults' centers of gravity are too high for any guardrail the height of lifelines to stop you. In the one case I know personally of going over, the only thing that saved him was his short tether. He slid halfway through the lifelines; the tether pulled him back.
When I go forward, I tend to hunch over a little keeping my CG lower. But again the rail, lifeline and teak grab rails are only to assist me. The jackline is what I rely on.
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Old 19-06-2013, 10:47   #54
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Re: Why do sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
A hole in non anodized aluminum will be just as bad , if not worse. Anodizing just puts an artificial and more uniform oxide layer on , just like the natural layer that builds up on aluminumexcept better. I built alum boats for years. What I dislike is the grey color that transfrers to everything once uncoated aluminum starts to "dirty up". Gray hands, gray clothes, gray sheets etc.
Cheechako,

Can you describe what will occur around this hole that would be "bad" for a person that has accepted that this entire component is already dull, pitted, oxidized and yes, dirty?

We have had holes in aluminum (bob stay tang was even under water!) on Panope for 35 years. The worst thing I have found was a bit of white powder around a fastener and the resulting slight elongation of the hole. Maybe in another 35 years someone would have to weld the hole and re-drill.

If one is trying to keep the aluminum shinny and new looking with a coating, then I too would not accept corrosion propagating outward from fasteners underneath this coating. Nothing uglier than blistered paint to my eye.

I think it is great how the architectural world has (after 150 years of trying to keep paint on steel) embraced un-coated metal. Lots of very "cool" looking stuff is now designed to just let go natural.

Steve
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Old 19-06-2013, 10:52   #55
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Re: Why do sailboats have wire lifelines?

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With bare wire not only can you see problems developing it is very easy to set up an electric fence security system using a 12v electric fence charger
how does it ground?
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Old 19-06-2013, 11:08   #56
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pirate Re: Why do Sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

Clothe pegs don't fit the steel tubes....
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Old 19-06-2013, 11:29   #57
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Re: Why do sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

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Originally Posted by Panope View Post
Cheechako,

Can you describe what will occur around this hole that would be "bad" for a person that has accepted that this entire component is already dull, pitted, oxidized and yes, dirty?

We have had holes in aluminum (bob stay tang was even under water!) on Panope for 35 years. The worst thing I have found was a bit of white powder around a fastener and the resulting slight elongation of the hole. Maybe in another 35 years someone would have to weld the hole and re-drill.

If one is trying to keep the aluminum shinny and new looking with a coating, then I too would not accept corrosion propagating outward from fasteners underneath this coating. Nothing uglier than blistered paint to my eye.

I think it is great how the architectural world has (after 150 years of trying to keep paint on steel) embraced un-coated metal. Lots of very "cool" looking stuff is now designed to just let go natural.

Steve
Hi, maybe I didnt say it well, (I was responding to your "..agree that a hole in anodized aluminum is asking for some corrosion issues " statement) I didnt mean to say non-anodized is bad... I meant it was certainly no better.. than anodized. Of course it's not practical to anodize most of an aluminum boat anyway, so I suppose it's a moot point.
Aluminum boats are a bit of a quandry for sure when it comes to corrosion; I have seen them with holes in the hull after a few years they corroded so bad. My friend's 48 foot cutter had to be painted 3 times in ~8 years... and yet others seem to be quite electrolysis neutral. So I guess we agree about painting aluminum... it's a short term proposition! Unfortunately the other option ... is well... a bit messy at times.
Yeah, that Core-Ten "self coating" steel is kinda cool, although it doesnt seem to have been "embraced" very often and for very long... at least not as much as it was when it was first introduced.
Nearly all commercial high rise etc window trim that I have seen is anodized or coated, maybe to make it look good with all those cool colors etc... hard to say.
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Old 19-06-2013, 12:11   #58
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Re: Why do sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Hi, maybe I didnt say it well, (I was responding to your "..agree that a hole in anodized aluminum is asking for some corrosion issues " statement) I didnt mean to say non-anodized is bad... I meant it was certainly no better.. than anodized. Of course it's not practical to anodize most of an aluminum boat anyway, so I suppose it's a moot point.
Aluminum boats are a bit of a quandry for sure when it comes to corrosion; I have seen them with holes in the hull after a few years they corroded so bad. My friend's 48 foot cutter had to be painted 3 times in ~8 years... and yet others seem to be quite electrolysis neutral. So I guess we agree about painting aluminum... it's a short term proposition! Unfortunately the other option ... is well... a bit messy at times.
Yeah, that Core-Ten "self coating" steel is kinda cool, although it doesnt seem to have been "embraced" very often and for very long... at least not as much as it was when it was first introduced.
Nearly all commercial high rise etc window trim that I have seen is anodized or coated, maybe to make it look good with all those cool colors etc... hard to say.
I understand. And yes we are in agreement.

My problem with anodizing aluminum (or sprayed gloss paint) is that it so perfect in unblemished areas that the corrosion or tool damage (that will eventually occur around fasteners) stands out like a sore thumb. Better to have the entire component be consistent - even if it is a bit drab.

I do not have much experience with marine stainless structures. I wonder, if one let their SS handrail "go natural", would the resulting "discolorations" cause premature weakening of the structure. If not, could one do sort of a "reverse pickleing" to achieve an immediate and uniform patina?

Steve
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Old 19-06-2013, 13:37   #59
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Re: Why do Sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

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Clothe pegs don't fit the steel tubes....
Finally!!!...A legitimate complaint against rail...
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Old 19-06-2013, 13:54   #60
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Re: Why do Sailboats have Wire Lifelines?

If you want tubular SS handrails, get a motorboat so equipped.

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