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Old 27-07-2016, 06:13   #1
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whipping - antal method - low friction ring

I took apart an antal strop/ring - very interesting . . . .

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The bury is (only) 33x, which my testing did identify as 'minimum for full strength' with steady state loads. The blue dots are where the bury's end - so they are as long as they can possibly be given the strop length.

There is an industry debate about whether this is satisfactory for cyclic/shop loads - antal obviously thinks so, others think in the 40's is needed and others think in the 60's or even 70's is needed.

It is not sewn, but it is very tightly whipped (which will also prevent low load slipping).

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The whipping is as close to 1:1 as they could accomplish. The whipping cord is dyneema. I am guessing it is done on some sort of jig because the whipping is extremely tight, but it still seems like handwork and not automated.

The main part of the whipping shows the telltale sign of half hitches (that spiral row of strand crosses), which is confirmed when I took it apart. The key question is how are the ends terminated. . . . see next post.
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Old 27-07-2016, 06:20   #2
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

Taking apart the whipping, I cut the center first, and it is as expected a series of half hitches.

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At the top, at the ring, the whipping cord is half hitched several times around the ring, and then one end is taken thru a strand of the main dyneema. Note - they dont seem to have any concern about point loading with the whipping under the main dyneema, but they do make several wraps which may spread things out.

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The other end is taken down a ways, and then between the two main dyneema strands and then half hitched working back up.

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and this end is then taken under a loop of the other end, before that end is tucked under the dyneema, and locked off by pulling that (tucked) end tight. The tucked end here must be left a bit long as the half hitches are being done and then the other (half hitching) end is put thru the loop, and this tucked end is pulled tight and both ends snipped off.

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Old 27-07-2016, 06:22   #3
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

I read that subject line wrong.
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Old 27-07-2016, 06:27   #4
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I read that subject line wrong.
Me too, had to double check which forum I was on!
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Old 27-07-2016, 06:37   #5
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

had to read it twice. thankyou.
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Old 27-07-2016, 08:11   #6
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

Here is a sequence that shows exactly how the bottom is done.

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The half hitching then just continues up to the ring.
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Old 27-07-2016, 08:53   #7
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I read that subject line wrong.
For that, 17 lashes.
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Old 27-07-2016, 08:55   #8
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Here is a sequence that shows exactly how the bottom is done.

Attachment 128540
Attachment 128541
Attachment 128542
Attachment 128543

The half hitching then just continues up to the ring.
Very interesting, thanks for that!

Will you be doing any destructive testing of those units? Would be really interesting to see the real life strength of various options.
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Old 27-07-2016, 08:56   #9
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I read that subject line wrong.
Dang it! I just spit coffee all over my monitor.
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Old 27-07-2016, 09:32   #10
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

Now that is tres cool. One of the best posts ever.
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Old 27-07-2016, 09:56   #11
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Here is a sequence that shows exactly how the bottom is done.
You just keep digging...
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Old 27-07-2016, 10:14   #12
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

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Dang it! I just spit coffee all over my monitor.
+1
Cheers
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Old 27-07-2016, 11:05   #13
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

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Originally Posted by SVNeko View Post
You just keep digging...
Yes...its important to know how the bottom ia properly done.
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Old 27-07-2016, 11:23   #14
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

Thanks for posting all that. Given the recent experimentation with lashing methods I find that very interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
The other end is taken down a ways, and then between the two main dyneema strands and then half hitched working back up.
Odd that they have chosen to work up to the throat with the half hitches, rather than away?

Evans, are you able to do any loads tests on another one? It would be useful to know where the failure occurs.

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Old 27-07-2016, 13:00   #15
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Re: whipping - antal method - low friction ring

Sorry guys . . . Should have put "seizing" in the title rather than "whipping" . . . . Got you all excited for nothing


Quote:
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Will you be doing any destructive testing of those units?
Can't. All done with that. We moved houses and i did not move test bench. My "shop space" is now filled up with computer gear for new project.

I think it is pretty clear that the Antal system is "weaker " (but still "strong enough") than your properly done lacing. For you . . . . From the Antal analysis . . . . . I would suggest the one lesson here is if you wanted shorter strops, you could easily get away with 35-40x rather than 72x buries, if you sew (or seize) them.

I have asked Antal if they will share instructions for their whipping. I think I understand it, but am not completely sure I have the top bit exactly the way they do it.
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