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Old 30-11-2011, 09:47   #1
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Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

Hi.
I'm currently planning a sail warderobe for my new project, a classic swedish "submarine with sails" 31' sailboat , not unlike the contessa 32 , but even less beam and freeboard.
The rig is a short masthead rig with single , moderately swept spreaders , and dual lower shrouds. I allso consider a solent stay.

It comes with some old sails , main, genoa, working jib and a heavy weather jib.
I would like to get all new sails and keep the old ones as spares.

Q: Wich sails do I need in my warderobe? Mostly for coastal cruising in northern Norway.
The prevailing winds here are south west to north west , wich hits the coast at a 45-135 degree angle.
In adittion to the sails I got I would like a reacher to get off the lee shore in light winds.
I'll allso need a trysail and maybe a storm jib.

I'm not shure if I should invest in a furler unit. I guess the genoa should be in use most of the time , but I don't see myself changing to the working jib on a RF in 20 kts of wind.

I could use a solent stay to carry the heavy weather sail , but I still think I'll make do with out furlers.

Would a staysail/yankee combination be of any use? and when would I use it?
Wich sails would you add to this boat?
Furler or not?
Solent stay for storm jib?

.manitu
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Old 04-12-2011, 13:38   #2
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

If you are mostly sailing short handed, or even single handed, I'd say yes to the furler. If I were in your position, I'd go with the following set up:

1) 125%-130% Genoa on furler
2) 95% jib on solent stay, with hanks
3) storm jib, with hanks, to suit solent stay
4) mainsail on batt-cars (for easy hoist / douse) with lazy jacks and boom bag, full battens and at least 2 deep reefs, prefereably 3.

Depending on your budget, good quality Dacron is hard to go past for sail cloth, but if you have the dollars, radial Hydranet from Dimension Polyant is great cloth.
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Old 04-12-2011, 15:30   #3
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitu View Post
Hi.
I'm currently planning a sail warderobe for my new project, a classic swedish "submarine with sails" 31' sailboat , not unlike the contessa 32 , but even less beam and freeboard.
The rig is a short masthead rig with single , moderately swept spreaders , and dual lower shrouds. I allso consider a solent stay.

It comes with some old sails , main, genoa, working jib and a heavy weather jib.
I would like to get all new sails and keep the old ones as spares.

Q: Wich sails do I need in my warderobe? Mostly for coastal cruising in northern Norway.
The prevailing winds here are south west to north west , wich hits the coast at a 45-135 degree angle.
In adittion to the sails I got I would like a reacher to get off the lee shore in light winds.
I'll allso need a trysail and maybe a storm jib.

I'm not shure if I should invest in a furler unit. I guess the genoa should be in use most of the time , but I don't see myself changing to the working jib on a RF in 20 kts of wind.

I could use a solent stay to carry the heavy weather sail , but I still think I'll make do with out furlers.

Would a staysail/yankee combination be of any use? and when would I use it?
Wich sails would you add to this boat?
Furler or not?
Solent stay for storm jib?

.manitu
Generally I am a fan of cutter rigs with removable forestays. Cutters offer you more sail combinations with fewer sails meaning less to store below. Also extra rigging provides more redundancy in supporting the upper mast. In one of the Pardey books they have a pattern for a J-hook tensioner for the forestay.

If you had a fractional sloop the above answer would not be appropriate.

As for the total sail wardrobe, my answer depend on your budget:

If you are on a tight budget:
Main with 3 reefs
135% yankee on hanks
100-115% staysail, hanked
Storm staysail, hanked
Drifter 155-175% with a high strength rope luff.
spinnaker pole or whisker pole to set a sail to windward when running or reaching very deeply.

As the budget increases I would add in the following order
1- furler for the Yankee.
2- Asymetrical chute
3- Code Zero on a roller
4- Trysail on it's own track
5- Spinnaker and all related gear.

Keep in mind that a Code Zero is essentially a reacher cut to sail deeper. Given the drifter which goes upwind well and beam reaches fine, I would rather have a sail to go deep with hence the asymetrical and Code Zero.

For me the choice between 2 and 3 would be strictly a monetary decision, I expect furler for the Code Zero to add $1000-1500 to the total price of the sail. Given a choice between the 2 and the expectation that I could afford the Code Zero by waiting another year, I would wait the extra year. The extra convenience of the roller furler would be worth it I believe.

The jib progression for upwind and reaching would be:
1. Drifter
2. Yankee and staysail
3. Yankee
4. Staysail
5. Storm staysail

Reefs in the main would occur at various times that would be dependent on the specifics of the boat, but at a guess would be at 3.5, 4.5 and 6.

The drifter being a light nylon sail would be compact and easy to store. The yankee would be bagged on the headstay ready to go back up at 4. and would be removed for storage at 5.
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Old 06-12-2011, 22:02   #4
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

Yeah , I guess I need a drifter , not a reacher. A genoa-cut nylon sail for light winds.
Still struggling with the english terminology , quite different than the norse terms.
Yeah , I'll sail a lot short/singlehanded.

My biggest fear is the lee shore , and it's allways a lee shore here. I got the old sails for the boat , so I'll start with the ones I do not have. A drifter first. Then the sails I need to get off a lee shore in medium and heavy weather.
The sails , by the way will come from sailrite , sewn by a friend of mine and me.

About the boat: The mast is just 10m /32ft , about the same as the boat. seems underrigged to me. I'll get a new main down the road, with one or two full battens to maximize the roach area.

The genoa/yankee/staysail bit is the one that troubles me.
As I understand it , the drifter needs a wire stay to keep its pointing abilities, yes?
So if get a furler for the genny/yankee, I'll need to put the solent stay as close to the mainstay as possible , right? not the ideal position for a storm jib..

But if I keep the hank-on , I can put the solent stay in the more "correct" position , 2/3 from the mast , and set wich sails I like on each stay.

The third option would be a furler on the genoa , solent stay for staysail /storm jib , and a dyneema stay or "code zero furler" in front of the genny, but now the costs are stacking up, and I don't think it would point as good.

I'm leaning towards #2, no furler. Because of costs and safety.
I know a lot of you consider a furler as a safety item , and yes , it saves you a lot of fore-deck duty in moderate to rough weather. However , when the **** hits the fan , and stuff break or jam(as they do) , I would be praying for a hank-on sail.


But please , convince me othervise.

Materials: Heavy duty dacron , coastgard orange for storm jib and trysail. Nylon for light wind sails and cruising dacron for all jibs and staysails I think... Considering cruising laminate(pentex) for the main and genoa , but I'm not shure how much of a difference it would make on a sailrite kit. It's still a sail made from sewn panels , and not a molded one-piece as most racers here use..

Another thing.. When carrying a drifter , I guess I could reduce the genoa from 150% to a 125%ish yankee , without too large a gap in the sailplan??

Thanks for all feedback , really appreciate you folks sharing your experience..

.manitu
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:52   #5
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

See attached for clarification of jibstay terminology. That should make my earlier reccommendations clearer.

Yeah it sound like you have a short mast. I would see about replacing that with something taller if possible. I don't know about Scandinavia, but in the US many yards have old masts sitting around from boats that have upgraded. That might be a cheap way to get a taller mast if you can find one with the right section properties. Going for the taller main would eliminate the need for full battens and the special mastslides they require.

I have just been reading Dave and Jaja Martin's site and they talk about their decision to stay with hanked on for the headsail. They cited 2 reasons:
A. Increased reliability, less to go wrong.
B. Practice going forward. By always going forward to deal with the jib, maintaining handholds and safety practices are second nature when having to go forward in an emergency.

Articles

Personally I am mostly in the hanked on camp, but the admiral may have the final say when we get our next boat in the next year or so.

Consider having the top 1/3 (above the third reef) of any new main be SOLAS orange material.

If you have a staysail, there is little on no gap in the sail area range, the yankee and staysail together have the area of a 140% genoa more or less. So you go from 165% drifter to 135%yankee&Staysail at 140% (equivalent) to yankee (which would be equivalent to 110% lapper because the yankee is cut so high) to lapping staysail (equivalent to about 80% jib), to storm staysail.
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Old 07-12-2011, 09:46   #6
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

ask the experts: CONTESSA 32 Home
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Old 08-12-2011, 22:53   #7
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

Hehe , it's the foresail terms i struggle with , not the stays. I know a solent stay traditionally is a stay, parallel to the headstay but i got the impression that the term is often used for all stays rear of the headstay , wich goes all (or most) of the way up to the masthead.

I see your point about no gap in the sailplan. But I notice that some folks feels that a cutter rig won't point as good against the wind as a sloop. If a single foresail points best , how big a genoa/yankee would be perfect to hoist when I have to take down my say 165-170% drifter?
Thank's for the tip , I will absolutely go for orange top on the main , IF i go for a dacron main. Don't think i'll get orange laminate in my price range.

About the contessa 32: The underwater hull is wery similar to my boat exept the beam. I think the contessa is 9 or 10 feet , my is less than 8'.
It's not a straight copy , I guess calling it a 31' GRP folkboat with modified fin keel would be more correct. I just dont know the make or model , may be a one-off copy of a wooden folkboat.
.

One idea.. might be foolish , I don't know: Could I have a removeable solent stay with two deck mounts in different positions? one on the foredeck and one at the headstay? Would solve a lot of problems and allow me to mount a furler , and still use a hanked drifter, or backup jib in case of a broken furler.

Again , the single most important factor is performance close hauled to close reach in all wind speeds.

.manitu
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Old 09-12-2011, 09:11   #8
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitu View Post
Hehe , it's the foresail terms i struggle with , not the stays. I know a solent stay traditionally is a stay, parallel to the headstay but i got the impression that the term is often used for all stays rear of the headstay , wich goes all (or most) of the way up to the masthead.

I see your point about no gap in the sailplan. But I notice that some folks feels that a cutter rig won't point as good against the wind as a sloop. If a single foresail points best , how big a genoa/yankee would be perfect to hoist when I have to take down my say 165-170% drifter?
Thank's for the tip , I will absolutely go for orange top on the main , IF i go for a dacron main. Don't think i'll get orange laminate in my price range.

About the contessa 32: The underwater hull is wery similar to my boat exept the beam. I think the contessa is 9 or 10 feet , my is less than 8'.
It's not a straight copy , I guess calling it a 31' GRP folkboat with modified fin keel would be more correct. I just dont know the make or model , may be a one-off copy of a wooden folkboat.
.

One idea.. might be foolish , I don't know: Could I have a removeable solent stay with two deck mounts in different positions? one on the foredeck and one at the headstay? Would solve a lot of problems and allow me to mount a furler , and still use a hanked drifter, or backup jib in case of a broken furler.

Again , the single most important factor is performance close hauled to close reach in all wind speeds.

.manitu
My understanding is that any stay forward of the mast is a forestay with the possible exception of a headstay. With a fractional rig the jib that goes to the bow of the boat is a forestay because it does not go to the head of the mast.

A solent stay is a stay that is stay that is set very near the headstay, behind or possibly to the side. If it is set to the side it they qualifies as a second headstay but is not used as much, hence the need for another name.

Normally on racing boats I see the genoa progression being Drifter, 125-140, Lapper (110-125), jib (80-100).
On cruising boats I am used to seeing Drifter/Genoa, Lapper, jib

A cutter with a genoa and a staysail wouldn't be as fast and/or point quite as high as a sloop hard on the wind.
A cutter with a Yankee and staysail, hard to say. Given that there is only moderate overlap between the 2 I would guess that there might be minimal penalty.

Keep in mind that pointing is more important if you are racing. When you are cruising the loss of 5* in pointing is worth it if the rig is significantly easier to handle. When you are racing you would expect to have a wide range of sails and a fresh crew to handle them. Few races last longer than a couple days.

When cruising you want a rig that can be handled by the one person on watch. If you are regularly taking sails on and off the watches are going to get worn out and perform other functions more poorly like lookout and navigation. Crew resource management becomes more important than all out speed.

The extra forestay being attachable at the bow or on the foredeck has some merit but I think more demerits.

On the plus side you could adjust the balance of the sail plan by moving the deck attachment fore and aft. Less extra rigging to install.

On the minus side you still have the 2 sails interfering with each other near the head, possibly chaffing. A sail that is designed to set right with the tack in one location won't work as well in the other location. Sheeting location is going to change radically with the change in tack location. There may be significant difference in luff length between the 2 tack locations that will have to be taken into account.
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:59   #9
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

My impression was that two foresails has the advantage on a reach , while single genoa would be best when close hauled? The reason I'm fixated on close hauled performance is not racing , but the extremely jagged coastline and the prevailing wind direction. I live inside the Lofoten islands and the islands steer the wind between the mainland coast and the Lofoten islands. You can easily get caught in a situation with land in three directions and the wind from the fourth.


Solent stay: If I do a two-position stay , it would only be to allow me to carry a hanked-on drifter and a furled yankee. In all other conditions the stay would be used in it's aft position. If used for an emergency jib , I don't think the sheeting angle would be that big a deal. (and the jib used would most likely be the one I got with the boat) The difference in luff length must be compensated with a longer deck fitting at the bow.

I'm still not shure about the furler.. It would be great most of the time, and a removeable true solent stay takes care of the drifter/emergency problem.
There is still the fear of a jammed furler with allmost all of the genoa out..

So.. I'll need a drifter(170%) , genoa/yankee(135%?) , staysail , working jib(90%?) , and storm staysail?

The genoa/yankee cut is allso an issue. a low cut genoa would work better close hauled , while a classic yankee would be better with a staysail on a reach, right?

Not so easy , this sail stuff..

edit: I could use different sails for home waters than cruising. When cruising, the plan is to use the staysail for self steering.

.manitu
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Old 11-12-2011, 21:40   #10
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitu View Post
My impression was that two foresails has the advantage on a reach , while single genoa would be best when close hauled? The reason I'm fixated on close hauled performance is not racing , but the extremely jagged coastline and the prevailing wind direction. I live inside the Lofoten islands and the islands steer the wind between the mainland coast and the Lofoten islands. You can easily get caught in a situation with land in three directions and the wind from the fourth.


Solent stay: If I do a two-position stay , it would only be to allow me to carry a hanked-on drifter and a furled yankee. In all other conditions the stay would be used in it's aft position. If used for an emergency jib , I don't think the sheeting angle would be that big a deal. (and the jib used would most likely be the one I got with the boat) The difference in luff length must be compensated with a longer deck fitting at the bow.

I'm still not shure about the furler.. It would be great most of the time, and a removeable true solent stay takes care of the drifter/emergency problem.
There is still the fear of a jammed furler with allmost all of the genoa out..

So.. I'll need a drifter(170%) , genoa/yankee(135%?) , staysail , working jib(90%?) , and storm staysail?

The genoa/yankee cut is allso an issue. a low cut genoa would work better close hauled , while a classic yankee would be better with a staysail on a reach, right?

Not so easy , this sail stuff..

edit: I could use different sails for home waters than cruising. When cruising, the plan is to use the staysail for self steering.

.manitu
Close hauled a deck sweeping genoa will be the fastest.
Close hauled a genoa and a staysail will interfere with each other decreasing speed by lets say .1-.4kt. and/or pointing ability by 2*-6* as a guess.
Close hauled a yankee and a staysail will not have the projected area of a full genoa loosing a bit on speed, .1-.2kt, but there should be no decrease in pointing ability because of the minimal overlap between them, pointing may be slightly improved (1*-3*) because the yankee can be sheeted tighter than the genoa though I expect the genoa will still have the VMG advantage.

Keep in mind the genoa will only be a minimal advantage closehauled in a narrow range of wind speeds, 10-15kt. Less wind than that you will be using the drifter, and above that you will be going to a smaller jib like a lapper.

The advantages of the yankee/staysail combination is greater ease of setting and dousing (sails are not removed, just dropped and bagged), yankee won't scoop waves, staysail rigging provides redundant mast support and less stowage required for sails.

My understanding is that solent stays developed as a way to set 2 headsails when running down wind. With the advent of symetrical spinnakers they went away for a while.

Now people are less happy with spinnakers because they have realized that they are a lot of work for cruising. So the solent has been making a comeback. The solent has also been making a comeback because people are using roller furling headsails a lot more and many don't completely trust them to work in all conditions. The solent allows them to hoist a hanked sail without removing the sail on the roller furler.

The advantages to the solent are cost (there are no extra shrouds or backstays because the stay attaches to the mast near the head) and the ability to use existing sails.

The disadvantages are the difficulty in getting adaquate space between the headstay and solent stay, especially if the headstay has a roller furled sail on it, airflow interference by the furled sail on one tack and the tensioning of the stays (tensioning the second stay relieves tension on the first so it is more likely to sag, possibly towards the solent stay where is will interfere with raising and lower the sails on the solent.

As far as the drifter goes, the ones I have used had wire luffs so they could be set flying, ie not on the forestay.

In the end you pay the money and you take your chances.
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Old 12-12-2011, 01:05   #11
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Close hauled a deck sweeping genoa will be the fastest.
Close hauled a genoa and a staysail will interfere with each other decreasing speed by lets say .1-.4kt. and/or pointing ability by 2*-6* as a guess.
Close hauled a yankee and a staysail will not have the projected area of a full genoa loosing a bit on speed, .1-.2kt, but there should be no decrease in pointing ability because of the minimal overlap between them, pointing may be slightly improved (1*-3*) because the yankee can be sheeted tighter than the genoa though I expect the genoa will still have the VMG advantage..

Keep in mind the genoa will only be a minimal advantage closehauled in a narrow range of wind speeds, 10-15kt. Less wind than that you will be using the drifter, and above that you will be going to a smaller jib like a lapper.

The advantages of the yankee/staysail combination is greater ease of setting and dousing (sails are not removed, just dropped and bagged), yankee won't scoop waves, staysail rigging provides redundant mast support and less stowage required for sails.
THANK YOU!! Just the answer I was looking for!! I think I'll go for yankee and staysail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
The advantages to the solent are cost (there are no extra shrouds or backstays because the stay attaches to the mast near the head) and the ability to use existing sails.

The disadvantages are the difficulty in getting adaquate space between the headstay and solent stay, especially if the headstay has a roller furled sail on it, airflow interference by the furled sail on one tack and the tensioning of the stays (tensioning the second stay relieves tension on the first so it is more likely to sag, possibly towards the solent stay where is will interfere with raising and lower the sails on the solent.

As far as the drifter goes, the ones I have used had wire luffs so they could be set flying, ie not on the forestay.
I'll have to think more about how to attach the extra stay. If I find a taller mast , maybe I could get a true cutter stay and swept spreaders. Running backstays(?) is not an option.

As I understand it , more tension on the luff means better pointing ability, right? Wich is why I want the drifter on a wire stay.

.manitu
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Old 19-12-2011, 14:53   #12
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

In light wind you don't want a tight luff because there will not be enough breeze to point worth a damn. In light conditions its generally necessary to keep everything pretty loose and baggy.
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Old 26-12-2011, 23:44   #13
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

Dont be in a hurry to change your rig. With a boat that is 32 feet, with less than 8 foot beam, you really have a knife in the water. It will probably go to weather very well under light or heavy conditions. If the boat was designed by a pro it may have plenty of sail area for such a light and narrow boat. Sail it for a season before you start dropping big dollars into it. Enjoy the heck out of it.____Grant.
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Old 27-12-2011, 01:15   #14
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

So a tight luff is no advantage in light winds , even on a drifter?

If so , I guess using a drifter with wire luff , hoisted on the spinnaker halyard would be the easy option with no hardware required.

I'm leaning towards something between a genoa and a yankee on a furler (125-135%) + staysail on removeable solent stay.

I know the boat is narrow , and I will try it out before I do any drastical changes.It's a masthead rig , with quite low aspect sails , so there is a decent sail area even with the short mast.

.manitu
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Old 09-06-2012, 16:25   #15
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Re: Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

I've finally started on the boat , project thread here:
Manitu's project: Finessa 33
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