Which Sails for My New Project ? 31' Masthead . . .

[gjordan]

I have made comments on your other posts on this boat, but I must say that you have a very nice boat. I would sew up a drifter out of 3/4 0r 1 onz. cloth and use a rope luff. It worked very well for me on a Contessa 26. I didnt even do a miter cut, I just left the clew high and it worked great. It got me through the doldromes going south and then north.____Grant.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Consider having the top 1/3 (above the third reef) of any new main be SOLAS orange material.
\

I would not mix cloth in a Dacron crosscut sail. You could have a layer of orange added although I really don't see much benefit. The wear characteristics of any dyed cloth are different than natural cloth. I would build this in laminate and consider a custom colored taffeta.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by manitu

Hi.
I'm currently planning a sail warderobe for my new project, a classic swedish "submarine with sails" 31' sailboat , not unlike the contessa 32 , but even less beam and freeboard.
The rig is a short masthead rig with single , moderately swept spreaders , and dual lower shrouds. I allso consider a solent stay.

It comes with some old sails , main, genoa, working jib and a heavy weather jib.
I would like to get all new sails and keep the old ones as spares.

Q: Wich sails do I need in my warderobe? Mostly for coastal cruising in northern Norway.
The prevailing winds here are south west to north west , wich hits the coast at a 45-135 degree angle.
In adittion to the sails I got I would like a reacher to get off the lee shore in light winds.
I'll allso need a trysail and maybe a storm jib.

I'm not shure if I should invest in a furler unit. I guess the genoa should be in use most of the time , but I don't see myself changing to the working jib on a RF in 20 kts of wind.

I could use a solent stay to carry the heavy weather sail , but I still think I'll make do with out furlers.

Would a staysail/yankee combination be of any use? and when would I use it?
Wich sails would you add to this boat?
Furler or not?
Solent stay for storm jib?

.manitu

Manitu,
Keep it simple and avoid clutter. A lot of armchair sailors haven't dealt with the PITA factor of an inner stay on a small boat. If you were working with us, my initial proposal would probably look something like this:

Mainsail with top batten full, three long partials (over 50% of girth). Going to all full length battens would add unwanted weight, remove ability to trim sail properly, and offer absolutely no real advantage in that you can't add much roach due to backstay. Two reefs, both deeper than standard. First reef to be roughly between a conventional first and second reef. Second reef to be close to the point of a conventional third reef.

A non overlapping headsail, either with hanks or on a furler. Non overlapping headsails are easy to handle, great for sailing upwind without getting overpowered, and less costly. If the sail is on a furler, short leech battens parallel to the luff can be used to reduce leech hollow and add sail area where it does the most good. If it's hank on, conventional leech battens can be used.

CLASS (Cruisers Light Air Sail Solution) which is basically a cruising code zero. It's different from a racing code zero in that we don't have girth requirements to meet and the sail can be carried to almost close hauled. This eliminates the need for a large overlapping genoa. Use with a Facnor foil-less furler. This sail will do a great job down to a beam reach. If you slacken the tackline, it can be carried at deeper angles but it's really optimized for close reaching. Consider a halyard lock to eliminate compression load on the mast if you really want to carry this sail close-winded. This is a versatile workhorse of a sail. We typically build in a heavy nylon (2.2-2.5).

Now let's look at broad reaching and downwind sailing. One solution would be a simple asym spinnaker optimized for deep angles in an ATN sock. Another solution would be a set of twin nylon sails on a common luff that could be flown from the same Facnor furler you're using for the code zero. You could also carry one of your existing genoas to pole out if you didn't feel like working too hard.

Storm sails
As a coastal cruiser on a small shorthanded boat, a trysail is neither needed or practical. If you're unable to duck in somewhere, the deep reefed main can be used. But if you've got sea room, you might just use a storm jib by itself. If your headsail is on a furler, an ATN Gale Sail could be used.

To furl or not to furl:
If you sail singlehanded a fair amount, a furler would be advantageous. I have to wonder how many of the advocates of hank on sails have gone forward on a small boat in a blow off the Norwegian coast. It's not much fun being underwater on the bow of a boat like that. And if you're alone, you're relying on the autopilot. I'd much rather have a human on the helm during a sail change. One of the advantages of my sailplan for your boat is that with the non-overlapping headsail, you're seldom faced with a headsail change in adverse weather. The CLASS is easily furled and then with our headsail and a reefed main, you will be fine.

Materials:
These days, there are some great alternatives to Dacron that offer great stretch resistance without a big hit to the wallet. For cruising applications on a boat this size, two possibilities are Custom Axis Laminate in Vectran and FTL (Flexible Taffeta Laminate) which is very similar to what North's Norlam.

If we went Dacron, I'd consider Marblehead for the main. The headsail isn't that large so the difference in cost between Dacron and laminate would be really minimal so I'd probably go FTL for the headsail.

[manitu]

I've looked at the sails and I got two mains , a genoa and a yankee.
One of the mains has no reefpoints and it's really baggy. Problaby the original. The other one has one reefpoint and looks good.
The genoa is well used , but the yankee looks like new!

@islandplanet: Your sailplan sounds really simple, and allows me to use my yankee as is .
One of the reaons why I want a solent stay is for self steering, but I would love a sailplan wich does not rely on one. I guess I could use your sailplan with just a small self steering/bad weather sail for the solent stay. It would be tucked away 95% of the time. I might even get away with a dyneema stay for the self steering.

.manitu

[islandplanet]

Manitu,

Many boats use wind vane steering without a solent stay. Success sailing under vane is a combination of factors including the type of vane, quality of install, hull shape, and most importantly the ability to balance the sailplan.

If I were setting up a boat like yours and wanted a solent stay, I'd make it out of Dyneema/Spectra and make it easily removable.

We have customers in Europe we've worked with. In fact one isn't too far from you.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by manitu

I'm leaning towards something between a genoa and a yankee on a furler (125-135%) + staysail on removeable solent stay.

A yankee and a staysail would be a good choice, but I'd prefer that arrangement with a staysail stay rather than a solent stay.

On a solent stay you usually run a #1 on the headstay and a #3 on the solent stay. You wouldn't tend to use them both at once.

[Bash]

One other thought: a 150% genoa is not a good sail for a low-aspect rig. Your main will all be luff bubble, regardless of how you try to shape the slot. Might as well take the main down. Someone earlier claimed that you'd point higher with a genoa, but with a low aspect rig that's wrong.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by Bash

One other thought: a 150% genoa is not a good sail for a low-aspect rig. Your main will all be luff bubble, regardless of how you try to shape the slot. Might as well take the main down. Someone earlier claimed that you'd point higher with a genoa, but with a low aspect rig that's wrong.

Bash,

I didn't see where someone said Manitu would point higher with a genoa but I agree with you. The real limiting factors for this boat when it comes to pointing are hull/keel shape. I don't know if it has outboard chainplates but those don't help much either. Most likely his highest pointing will be with a jib. His best VMG in light to moderate air will be with something along the lines of our CLASS (cruising code zero) for close and beam reaching.

Large overlapping genoas are one of the most inefficient sails imaginable and really exist more due to tradition than anything else.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by Bash

A yankee and a staysail would be a good choice, but I'd prefer that arrangement with a staysail stay rather than a solent stay.

On a solent stay you usually run a #1 on the headstay and a #3 on the solent stay. You wouldn't tend to use them both at once.

Have to disagree with you on this one. Yankee/staysail combo's are not all that efficient and would cripple him upwind as a primary sailplan. See our Facebook page for an article with some comments from Bob Perry on why high clewed sails are generally a lousy idea.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by islandplanet

Have to disagree with you on this one. Yankee/staysail combo's are not all that efficient and would cripple him upwind as a primary sailplan. See our Facebook page for an article with some comments from Bob Perry on why high clewed sails are generally a lousy idea.

I'm not inclined to go searching for your facebook page, but I've disagreed several times with Bob Perry on rig issues. (It was Bob who gave me the nickname "Bash" by the way, not for any reasons you might guess.)

I run a high-clewed jib as my primary foresail in the summer months here in windy San Francisco Bay, and it doesn't hurt my pointing ability a single degree. The claim that a yankee/staysail combo "would cripple him upwind" seems to be hyperbole from my perspective.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by islandplanet

Manitu, Keep it simple and avoid clutter.

If we went Dacron, I'd consider Marblehead for the main. The headsail isn't that large so the difference in cost between Dacron and laminate would be really minimal so I'd probably go FTL for the headsail.

Manitu, I couldn't agree more with Islandplanet, keep it simple especially as you are on a limited budget (aren't we all).

New 135% Genoa in Marblehead or equivalent with foam luff and new main with reefing points. Flog the old sails on E bay and buy a storm sail from e bay. In a couple of years if you want to go and play with extra sails, you can buy them then.

Spinnakers are cheap in the UK out of season if you can handle the postage costs.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cruising-C...f#ht_645wt_976

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Spinnaker-...b#ht_775wt_976

Pete

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by Bash

I'm not inclined to go searching for your facebook page, but I've disagreed several times with Bob Perry on rig issues. (It was Bob who gave me the nickname "Bash" by the way, not for any reasons you might guess.)

I run a high-clewed jib as my primary foresail in the summer months here in windy San Francisco Bay, and it doesn't hurt my pointing ability a single degree. The claim that a yankee/staysail combo "would cripple him upwind" seems to be hyperbole from my perspective.

Bash,

How many years did you say you've spent in sailmaking and designing sails? What sort of testing have you done to validate your claim that your high clewed headsail points just as well as a true upwind sail? Maybe you've done some side by side testing with a sistership identically equipped? Because you sir have made a breakthrough in sail design somehow with your high clewed yankee that "doesn't hurt pointing ability a single degree."

Since you're in the bay area, perhaps you should stop by Pineapple and educate Kame Richards, stop by Doyle and educate Bill Columbo, Alain at UK, etc.

For those that think Bob Perry might actually know a little bit more about sails and rigs than Bash, here's something:

Bob Perry on headsails - (this is pasted verbatim from a post on sailing anarchy and is in response to a question about clew height): I drew it that way because at the time most cutters carried high clewed yankees. It was traditional. But if you look at the area of the high clewed yankee and the center of pressure you can see that retaining the same sail area and dropping the clew will drop the center of pressure and result in a lower heeling moment. Over time I have grown away from high clewed sails. My own rule of thumb is never have a jib clew higher than you can easily reach when the boat is heeled past 20 degrees. The yankee with the lower clew will be far more effective without the staysail to "fill in the hole". If I owned your boat and I was after a new headsail I'd have it cut like a genoa with the clew just above the lifelines. This would be a far more versitile sail than a high clewed yankee. A high clewed yankee and mainsail flown without the staysail is not a good combo.

[bullsails]

Islandplanet is pretty much spot on, the other big downside of a high clew is the amount of sheet between block and sail. When the wind increases the clew blows outward making the sheeting angle much wider than a lower clewed sail with a resulting loss of power and height. The only considerations to a higher clew are 1/ better visibility, sailing shorthanded in channels, 2/ you want to tack around the inner forestay which is along way forward and 3/ the genoa tracks are very short on length and you need to sail semi furled on occassion ( higher clew means less track adjustment fore and aft). Take these into account if you need these requirements and still do the lowest clew you can.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by islandplanet

How many years did you say you've spent in sailmaking and designing sails?

Wow. All that spleen just because I don't want to visit your facebook page?

It's interesting to hear someone from a discount "loft" appeal to the expertise of local sailmakers to make a point. I've had both Kame Richards and Bill Columbo make sails for various boats, and I honestly doubt they'll confirm that a yankee/staysail combo will "cripple" the OP's upwind performance, as you've claimed. And I have no doubt that either of them will build a good yankee/staysail combo for him if that's what he decides works best for his needs, especially given his low-aspect rig.

On the other hand, it seems almost certain that someone wanting a high-clewed yankee won't be shopping for one at an off-the-rack discount house that specializes in cookie-cutter sails.

Is that the real the problem here? If the OP takes my advice, you'll lose his business?

[manitu]

Really interresting discussion, please keep it civilized. Back up your claims with arguments you can defend, and save the bickering for your facebook pages. (or other forum centered around that kind of stuff)

I understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch, and every decision has it's pros and cons. One good reason for a high clew on my boat is the low freeboard. A deck sweeping genoa or jib is bound to catch some waves.
But not on the light wind sails.

.manitu