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Old 24-03-2013, 12:04   #46
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Re: Varnish

VARNISHING COCKPIT GRATE: only one reply to our query about varnishing our grate in the Valiant cockpit. It has been sanded & oiled enough that we are close to the teak plugs covering the screws. ANYONE have pros, cons, experience to share about the slipperyness of varnishing? Thanks.
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Old 24-03-2013, 12:15   #47
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Re: Varnish

Maybe it's just time for a rescrewing and replugging..? Or if the plugs are getting paper thin, maybe just rescrewing with Bronze fasteners (one size bigger?) and leave them exposed for the salty look....
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Old 24-03-2013, 12:26   #48
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Re: Varnish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen View Post
VARNISHING COCKPIT GRATE: only one reply to our query about varnishing our grate in the Valiant cockpit. It has been sanded & oiled enough that we are close to the teak plugs covering the screws. ANYONE have pros, cons, experience to share about the slipperyness of varnishing? Thanks.
For better or worse, I've decided to go with bare teak for the cockpit grates, swim ladder steps, and anything on deck (e.g. hatch covers) that could be slippery with varnish on them. Every so often I will bleach them but that'll be it. Definitely no sanding or scrubbing. The toerails, cockpit combing, and other bits & pieces will still get varnished to protect them & for aesthetics.

When I bought the boat my cockpit grates were varnished, and I don't recall them being slippery. Could have been that the varnish was already worn, or that there was a nonskid additive. From what I've read here in this thread, it sounds like oil may not be a bad way to go, but also that leaving them alone doesn't do any harm either. The occasional bleaching with wood bleach gets rid of the grey and brings the orig. color back. From what I've learned, sanding & hard scrubbing will wear them down pretty quick.
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Old 24-03-2013, 15:02   #49
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Re: Varnish

IMHO varnishing a grate would be disasterous. Firstly it would prove slippery when wet. And the abuse it would take would have the varnish break down pronto. PLus there are so many edges and corners, that's where coatings are the thinnest, would break down and unless you redo it often, water will discolor the wood in patches.

Leave all your exterior timber to Nature, let it grey and spend all the time you save on other mantainance or in just using your vessel. We make all our nice timber below give our home a warm rich look. Even our toilet!

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Old 24-03-2013, 16:37   #50
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Re: Varnish

Just second-guessing myself here, but what else is new?!

There was a Tartan a couple of slips down from me that had a substantial teak toerail, not unlike mine. This toerail, like mine, has the bolts running through it that form the hull to deck joint, so I guess it's a structural vs. purely aesthetic piece. Anyway, the Tartan owner apparently chose to do nothing to his toerail over a number of years, and the teak actually wore away to the point where some of the bolts became visible!

So my question is whether teak can simply wear away from doing nothing to it, as opposed to just turning more & more grey? Who knows, maybe the guy with the Tartan or the PO also scrubbed/sanded it. In any event, it caused me to be diligent about varnishing my own toerails, but I'm not sure if I'm doing it for functional or merely aesthetic reasons. Sorta like gelcoat, it would be nice to have a better sense of where function leaves off & merely form takes over.
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Old 24-03-2013, 16:52   #51
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Re: Varnish

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So my question is whether teak can simply wear away from doing nothing to it, as opposed to just turning more & more grey?
A bit depends on the density of the teak, but scrubbing does wear it faster. Our external timbers don't get scrubbed except by our usage. The cockpit seats are holding up very well, even though they are flat surface in heavy use. Our toe rails are harder durable number one timber and withstand heavy abuse except on one horror Southern Ocean passage.
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Old 24-03-2013, 17:01   #52
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Re: Varnishing Teak grate

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Originally Posted by Helen View Post
We have a 24 year old Valiant 40 with a teak grate sole in the cockpit. This grate has always had an oil finish, but it is getting harder to bring back the oiled finish. Unfortunately, further sanding will expose the screws below the teak plugs.
A dockmate, an extremely experienced racer and former delivery captain, advised us to varnish the grate to eliminate the need for further sanding. We were surprised knowing that the grate was not previously varnished because varnish can be dangerously slippery.
But our master yachtsman friend who has a beautifully varnished teak grate in his cockpit, claims that deck shoes create suction on the grate that prevents slipping and he has years of experience to back up his argument.
Valiant, Cabo Rico owners and others out there, is there any science on / or experience with varnished cockpit grates?
Have varnished cockpit grate and cockpit benches. No problems here.
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Old 24-03-2013, 17:25   #53
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Re: Varnish

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J

So my question is whether teak can simply wear away from doing nothing to it, as opposed to just turning more & more grey?
I have take abandoned boats from marina yards where lichens and mold have grown over and on the teak over years of neglect, and found that with a very mild solution of Simple Green and a soft hand deck brush, that the teak was like new when lightly washed, brushed and rinsed. Of course this was in areas where water was not allowed to pool or puddle. In those places some rot occasionally developed.
So I guess it all depends on environmental conditions as to speed of wearing away versus greying? My experience is if do nothing, the oils will eventually dry and splitting and splintering will begin.
Just remember teak is wood, not a Twinkie! It does not have an indefinite lifespan or shelf life. But in contrast I have a carbon dated slab of 3000 year old white cedar ( that was dug from a river bottom when building the NJ Garden State Parkway. ) Or you could reference the Sinop Byzantine Black Sea wreck where the mast is still in pristine condition sitting in the anoxic layer at the bottom of the sea. So I think it is all conditional and environmental. What are you willing to compromise to keep your teak? Either work now, or pay later.
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Old 28-03-2013, 05:02   #54
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Re: Varnish

Your rails look a lot like our teak -- a mix of beautiful and not. We stripped them a combo of ways.... Scraping, sanding and using a heat gun. What worked best was using a heat gun first, sanding with 80 grit, using a teak brightener (which sometimes helped and sometimes didn't) then sanded with 120. (my latest blog on the project Galley Wench Tales: Final Brushstrokes – and -- RAIN!)

We left our rails on. It was challenging to do a nice job at the base, and we'll go back in and do a little clean-up there with acetone &/or MEK &/or gently with some mild abrasive.

FYI - Because we're in the Caribbean, we used Cetol for easy maintenance over the long haul. We realize it's not as pretty as varnish, and some folks have issues, but for easy annual maintenance we're willing to risk it. There are some areas, like our cockpit table and hatch boards, we'll varnish.

In any case, you'll be thrilled when you're done. We are!
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Old 28-03-2013, 05:22   #55
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Re: Varnish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimea Cruiser View Post
I have take abandoned boats from marina yards where lichens and mold have grown over and on the teak over years of neglect, and found that with a very mild solution of Simple Green and a soft hand deck brush, that the teak was like new when lightly washed, brushed and rinsed. Of course this was in areas where water was not allowed to pool or puddle. In those places some rot occasionally developed.
So I guess it all depends on environmental conditions as to speed of wearing away versus greying? My experience is if do nothing, the oils will eventually dry and splitting and splintering will begin.
Just remember teak is wood, not a Twinkie! It does not have an indefinite lifespan or shelf life. But in contrast I have a carbon dated slab of 3000 year old white cedar ( that was dug from a river bottom when building the NJ Garden State Parkway. ) Or you could reference the Sinop Byzantine Black Sea wreck where the mast is still in pristine condition sitting in the anoxic layer at the bottom of the sea. So I think it is all conditional and environmental. What are you willing to compromise to keep your teak? Either work now, or pay later.
I don't think it "turns more and more gray". It reaches a silver-gray color with no more brown in it within a season or two, and stays that way.

It can certainly wear from being washed, and even from water coming over the bow. The pulp layers are very, very soft, alas. It does not seem to wear much from being walked on. And it survives incredible things -- like one idiot dumped an entire bucket of used motor oil on my teak deck, and I thought it was ruined. But amazingly, after soaking it up with diatomaceous earth and a season of sailing, there is no trace of the oil at all. It seems that the only thing teak can't survive is having the soft pulp ripped out of it by pressure washing or brushing along the grain. It doesn't even need to be washed -- it seems to repel dirt and shed it whenever seawater goes over the deck.

None of the teak above decks on my boat is varnished, oiled, or treated in any way -- it's all au naturelle, and looks great. I especially love the massive teak cap rail, which is fixed to short bulwarks on my boat. Completely natural and looking great after 13 years of exposure to the elements, although it does have a couple of cracks I need to take care of . The teak gets a little green over the winter, but as soon as I take the boat to sea and get some salt water on it, the green disappears and it looks like new again.
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Old 28-03-2013, 09:28   #56
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Re: Varnish

[QUOTE=FlyingCloud1937;1191528]Epoxy has ZERO UV inhibitor, so any UV damage will be at the wood to coat interfaces, that is the white milky you see, that allows the wood under the coat to oxidize, and now we have a bonding issue.

Sorry, FlyingCloud1937, but your facts don't match mine:
Per (http://www.westsystem.com/ss/207-spe...ear-hardener):

105/207 has strong physical properties, so it can be used as a structural adhesive for gluing and laminating. It has excellent compatibility with paints and varnishes. An ultraviolet inhibitor in 207 helps provide a beautiful, long lasting finish when used with quality UV filtering varnish. 105/207 cures clear and colorless.

I have used the 207 hardener with excellent results. Here is an example, a 1922 Rolls Royce boattail, designed by Olin Stephens (that's him in the photo). Bob Dixon and I built the body a couple years ago, and it has successfully endured the elements during a variety of world tours:
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Old 28-03-2013, 10:24   #57
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Re: Varnish

[QUOTE=Roy M;1196728]
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Epoxy has ZERO UV inhibitor, so any UV damage will be at the wood to coat interfaces, that is the white milky you see, that allows the wood under the coat to oxidize, and now we have a bonding issue.

Sorry, FlyingCloud1937, but your facts don't match mine:
Per (http://www.westsystem.com/ss/207-spe...ear-hardener):

105/207 has strong physical properties, so it can be used as a structural adhesive for gluing and laminating. It has excellent compatibility with paints and varnishes. An ultraviolet inhibitor in 207 helps provide a beautiful, long lasting finish when used with quality UV filtering varnish. 105/207 cures clear and colorless.

I have used the 207 hardener with excellent results. Here is an example, a 1922 Rolls Royce boattail, designed by Olin Stephens (that's him in the photo). Bob Dixon and I built the body a couple years ago, and it has successfully endured the elements during a variety of world tours:
Lol! Do you leave it sitting out in the sun 24/7 like a boat? Doubt it. Even WEST says it needs a proper varnish topcoat. I have seen many failures using this method, and it ain't easy to fix.
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Old 28-03-2013, 11:03   #58
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Re: Varnish

I guess my observation that it works well was not clear enough for minaret. Especially, the part, extracted from the West System website, that the epoxy/207 hardener, WHEN USED WITH QUALITY UV FILTERING VARNISH makes it relevant. I'm surprised you are so quick to dismiss, especially after you recognized the value of the clear coat LPU varnishes. For those with the ability to work with these materials, it may prove to be as useful for them as it has for many others.

And no, the car doesn't live out on the street. But handrails and other teak trim (or Bubinga with Honduran mahogany, as on the car) do hold up exceedingly well. Everything exposed to sea, salt and sunshine needs proper care. Your clear finish, your skin, and your eyes. Some of us use UV protective epoxy, coupled with high-end LPU to protect clear finishes, especially if we can't afford to hire minaret to drop by every three or four months to keep up appearances. He probably uses it on his own boat unless he spends much of his own time rolling rocks uphill. Someday, I'll name a beautiful wood hulled boat SISYPHUS in honor of this noble, yet fruitlass endeavor.
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Old 28-03-2013, 12:47   #59
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Re: Varnish

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I guess my observation that it works well was not clear enough for minaret. Especially, the part, extracted from the West System website, that the epoxy/207 hardener, WHEN USED WITH QUALITY UV FILTERING VARNISH makes it relevant. I'm surprised you are so quick to dismiss, especially after you recognized the value of the clear coat LPU varnishes. For those with the ability to work with these materials, it may prove to be as useful for them as it has for many others.

And no, the car doesn't live out on the street. But handrails and other teak trim (or Bubinga with Honduran mahogany, as on the car) do hold up exceedingly well. Everything exposed to sea, salt and sunshine needs proper care. Your clear finish, your skin, and your eyes. Some of us use UV protective epoxy, coupled with high-end LPU to protect clear finishes, especially if we can't afford to hire minaret to drop by every three or four months to keep up appearances. He probably uses it on his own boat unless he spends much of his own time rolling rocks uphill. Someday, I'll name a beautiful wood hulled boat SISYPHUS in honor of this noble, yet fruitlass endeavor.


Nice! Sisyphus, boat name of the year!


But honestly, I'm a pro painter, my wife was for many years a very high end pro varnisher. Both of our companies tried every formula out there, WEST, Rivole, Bristol, etc. etc. Both companies at one point did many many boats with WEST sealer and build up in various formulae. Both companies stopped doing it due to multiple failures. I'm sure Flying Cloud is probably familiar with the company she worked with, Level Sky. They are legendary in the boat world around here.
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Old 28-03-2013, 13:12   #60
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Re: Varnish

Actually, my favorite name is CALLIPYGOUS, the quality of having a shapely bottom.
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