Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-02-2013, 23:05   #31
Senior Cruiser
 
Ocean Girl's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: In transit ( Texas to wherever the wind blows us)
Boat: Pacific Seacraft a Crealock 34
Posts: 4,115
Images: 2
Re: Varnish

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
I have base coats that are over 15 years old. Tung oil and other phenolic sealers are a problem for long term, as they harden with age even minus the UV.
Lloyd
That is double my base coat (7-8 years here in the tropics) I'll be trying your technique for sure! Thanks again for the detailed post.

Quote:
Now you're going to varnish the next 2 coats with semi-gloss of the same brand as your gloss topcoat. Using the same sanding and turpentine wipe as before, with just a splash of penetrol. Semi-gloss has a particulate oxide that gives the varnish a semi-gloss appearance. But if you're going to all the work of a proper varnish job it better be gloss
Sorry if I'm being thick here, but want to clarify. You are referring to dry sanding between the coats of semigloss, correct? Not wet sand.



Also, here is a great touch up bottle from amazon it has a built in brush with a mixing ball at the bottom.

Thanks,
Erika
__________________

__________________
Mrs. Rain Dog~Ocean Girl
https://raindogps34.wordpress.com
Ocean Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2013, 23:56   #32
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,205
Re: Varnish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean Girl View Post
That is double my base coat (7-8 years here in the tropics) I'll be trying your technique for sure! Thanks again for the detailed post.



Sorry if I'm being thick here, but want to clarify. You are referring to dry sanding between the coats of semigloss, correct? Not wet sand.



Also, here is a great touch up bottle from amazon it has a built in brush with a mixing ball at the bottom.

Thanks,
Erika
Yes dry sand because it is easy, I only wet sand the sealer coats.

But as long as you don't have bare wood you can wet sand every coat, wet sand with water, then rinse. It makes the sand paper last longer.

At the expense of the masking, also the potential of water trap at the masking.

I change the masking at every 2nd to 3rd coat. Here's another secrete.

Base mask everything about a 1/4 away from the wood, then final mask over the top of the base mask. Then all you have to do is peel the final mask every 2nd to 3rd, and then re-mask for final again. You will never have the ugly build up that needs to be cut with a blade.

The turp wipe is essential, as it helps create a chemical bond old to new

Lloyd

Bobconnie, don't even get me started on paint over teak... it's a sin
__________________

__________________
FlyingCloud1937 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 08:47   #33
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,964
Re: Varnish

Good find on the touch-up bottles on Amazon -- tks.

Does anyone have a rule of thumb on how much to thin for the purpose of getting the varnish to "flow" off the brush? I hear & read about this a lot but can't say I've been able to visualize or put into practice. At this point, I'm not sealing but just looking at applying maintenance coats so want to get as much varnish as practicable on. I use Epifanes brush thinner & always thin it a bit, esp. if I'm getting towards the bottom of a can of varnish that's been in the locker for awhile. I imagine if you thin too much you encourage runs, etc.

Dan
__________________
Exile is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2013, 15:44   #34
Senior Cruiser
 
Roy M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Southwestern Yacht Club, San Diego, CA
Boat: Searunner 40 trimaran, WILDERNESS
Posts: 3,042
Images: 4
Re: Varnish

bobconnie has the right idea for folks who face continuous heat and ultraviolet. FlyingCloud1937 lives in a wonderful world where the sky is occasionally blue and the ultraviolet is kindlier to varnish and fair skin.

I strip with Jabsco Premium Epoxy Stripper, taking everything off to bare teak. Then sand it smooth, using FlyingCloud1937's guidelines. Then, I coat it with two coats of West System with 207 Special Finish hardener. It gives the wood a nice amber color, the epoxy is especially ultraviolet resistant. Then, 2-3 coats of clear linear polyurethane 2-part finish, and finally, a topcoat of 2-part polyurethane in white or beige or tan. Then the boat is ready for several years of no-maintenance performance in blistering bright tropical sun. Then, on returning to the lands of shiny yachts and gentler sun, the owner needs to only sand off a thin opaque white coat, brush one simple coat of clear polyurethane (2-part), and look gorgeous until the next tropical cruise.
__________________
Roy M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2013, 15:56   #35
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,369
Re: Varnish

If you dont get rid of the old varnish adjacent to other spots that are worn through it will be differnt colors and blotchy when you overcoat it with new varnish.....
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2013, 16:08   #36
Registered User
 
Tide Roller's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Honolulu, HI
Boat: Catalina 36
Posts: 30
So my plan now is to sand all of the varnish off and coat with teak oil. I'm only doing small parts at a time so the oil will be on till I get both handrails sanded and some other wood done as well.
I have already done all of the wood in the cockpit with varnish and I'm going to test this summer how long it lasts. 3 months in Hawaii should give me an indication if it is going to be worth keeping the varnish.
The teak oil looks real nice and if I don't have to sand every couple months that's worth what I loose in glossy finish.
If he varnish holds up I will coat all of my wood and keep up with it. If not I will determine if semco or teak oil is an option I want to go with.

Thanks for all of the great advice

-B
__________________
Tide Roller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 20:25   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2
Re: Varnishing Teak grate

We have a 24 year old Valiant 40 with a teak grate sole in the cockpit. This grate has always had an oil finish, but it is getting harder to bring back the oiled finish. Unfortunately, further sanding will expose the screws below the teak plugs.
A dockmate, an extremely experienced racer and former delivery captain, advised us to varnish the grate to eliminate the need for further sanding. We were surprised knowing that the grate was not previously varnished because varnish can be dangerously slippery.
But our master yachtsman friend who has a beautifully varnished teak grate in his cockpit, claims that deck shoes create suction on the grate that prevents slipping and he has years of experience to back up his argument.
Valiant, Cabo Rico owners and others out there, is there any science on / or experience with varnished cockpit grates?
__________________
Helen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 20:53   #38
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,201
Images: 52
Re: Varnish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
bobconnie has the right idea for folks who face continuous heat and ultraviolet. FlyingCloud1937 lives in a wonderful world where the sky is occasionally blue and the ultraviolet is kindlier to varnish and fair skin.

I strip with Jabsco Premium Epoxy Stripper, taking everything off to bare teak. Then sand it smooth, using FlyingCloud1937's guidelines. Then, I coat it with two coats of West System with 207 Special Finish hardener. It gives the wood a nice amber color, the epoxy is especially ultraviolet resistant. Then, 2-3 coats of clear linear polyurethane 2-part finish, and finally, a topcoat of 2-part polyurethane in white or beige or tan. Then the boat is ready for several years of no-maintenance performance in blistering bright tropical sun. Then, on returning to the lands of shiny yachts and gentler sun, the owner needs to only sand off a thin opaque white coat, brush one simple coat of clear polyurethane (2-part), and look gorgeous until the next tropical cruise.


WEST System has very little UV resistance. Read the guide. Of course if you paint over it it doesn't matter.
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 20:54   #39
Registered User
 
John Galt's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Titusville Fl.
Boat: Cheoy Lee Offshore 38
Posts: 120
I've always varnished my cockpit grates. I've not slipped wet or dry in over 8 years.
__________________
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. H. L. Mencken
John Galt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2013, 10:24   #40
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,369
Re: Varnish

sprinkle a little non skid in the varnish. I've found dry varnished cabin soles to be extremely slippery when on a heel with normal boat shoes. Why not just sand lightly and go with the saltwater every couple of days on the grates? I would think keeping them varnished would be a pain....
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2013, 17:36   #41
Marine Service Provider
 
banyandah's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: North Coast NSW
Boat: 38' cutter
Posts: 254
Images: 35
Send a message via Skype™ to banyandah
Re: Varnish

Banyandah is 40 years afloat and has been exposed to the harshest UV down here in the southern latitudes. When we built her, all her exterior timbers gleamed with the very best varnish. But over the years, bit by bit, til today they have no coatings, and have bleached grey requiring no maintenance at all. Except our sliding aft hatch, which we coat every three or four months with Deks Olje teak oil. A scrub with freshwater followed by multiple coats until saturated is all that's required.

We are not a classy marina boat. Banyandah was built to sail the seas.

Below decks lies her beautiful timbers, aglow with mostly satin varnish so the depth of timber shines through. A secret is to seal all surfaces and then apply a minimum of four coats of gloss before finishing with two of satin. This gives the timber great depth as well as good protection.

Hope that helps,
__________________
Jack and Jude
Sailing stories and guides
banyandah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2013, 09:48   #42
Registered User
 
Suijin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Annapolis MD; currently in Oriental NC
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 2,933
Re: Varnish

I would leave the wood on the boat unless you have reason to believe that there is moisture penetration into the cabin top. One benefit of taking it off is that you can re-bed it with proper caulking and be sure that the seal is good, but every time you take wood off a boat you're likely stressing/weakening the fastening holes. If you don't have confidence in the seal, then take it off and do it right, but for subsequent strippings I would leave it on.

A heat gun has the advantage of driving moisture out of the wood in the process, and it's easier to control if you're comfortable with handling it. Faster too, and no chemicals to mess with. I never use sandpaper to remove varnish as you inevitably end up taking off some of the wood as well.

Flying Cloud offers up some spectacular advice regarding choice of materials and application. I would only add that how much you thin and what you thin with is dependent on temperature and humidity. Also, be careful of when you apply your coats. Late morning is best, and don't go past mid-afternoon as you want to stay comfortably clear of when the dew point starts rising.

Most varnishes say to never thin. That's nonsense, and in fact I would argue that you won't get a perfect finish without thinning to some extent. Obviously you have to be careful because of the increased propensity to run, but that's why you do more thinner coats.

Generally, put on a total of 12 coats when refinishing and then at least four "refresher" coats each year. Expect to have to strip and refinish well maintained wood every 8-10 years, give or take, depending on climate, wear, etc.

If you really hate varnishing, consider having covers made for your wood bits. I have seen boats with little coverings on almost every piece of varnished wood, particularly toe rails and handrails. Seems sort of funny but I guess it cuts down on maintenance. Time is money and the cost of the covers might seem like a bargain if they really cut the time you need to spend on maintenance.
__________________
Suijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2013, 19:32   #43
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,205
Re: Varnish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
bobconnie has the right idea for folks who face continuous heat and ultraviolet. FlyingCloud1937 lives in a wonderful world where the sky is occasionally blue and the ultraviolet is kindlier to varnish and fair skin.

I strip with Jabsco Premium Epoxy Stripper, taking everything off to bare teak. Then sand it smooth, using FlyingCloud1937's guidelines. Then, I coat it with two coats of West System with 207 Special Finish hardener. It gives the wood a nice amber color, the epoxy is especially ultraviolet resistant. Then, 2-3 coats of clear linear polyurethane 2-part finish, and finally, a topcoat of 2-part polyurethane in white or beige or tan. Then the boat is ready for several years of no-maintenance performance in blistering bright tropical sun. Then, on returning to the lands of shiny yachts and gentler sun, the owner needs to only sand off a thin opaque white coat, brush one simple coat of clear polyurethane (2-part), and look gorgeous until the next tropical cruise.
Epoxy has ZERO UV inhibitor, so any UV damage will be at the wood to coat interfaces, that is the white milky you see, that allows the wood under the coat to oxidize, and now we have a bonding issue.

Epoxy is hard, now we have an injury prone coat at the wood interface, and as soon as there is an injury water will begin it's creep, de-bonding, oxidizing, de-bonding.

While green expoy will make a marry tie coat to polyurethanes, a fully cured epoxy will only be a mechanical tie.

One coat of poly will not give any UV protection, all of the Poly products recommend at least four coats, to achive UV stability.

While northern latitude will extend the varnish recipe I prescribed, it will also last in harsh UV applications.

Nothing that is done improper will last. 4 coats minimum poly, or 8 coats minimum varnish.

Varnish is an easier repair then Poly. Plus the golden glow of Varnish done right can never be matched by any other product. It's the natural amber that all the synthetics try to replicate.

but can't

Lloyd
__________________
FlyingCloud1937 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2013, 21:44   #44
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,964
Re: Varnish

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Epoxy has ZERO UV inhibitor, so any UV damage will be at the wood to coat interfaces, that is the white milky you see, that allows the wood under the coat to oxidize, and now we have a bonding issue.

Epoxy is hard, now we have an injury prone coat at the wood interface, and as soon as there is an injury water will begin it's creep, de-bonding, oxidizing, de-bonding.

While green expoy will make a marry tie coat to polyurethanes, a fully cured epoxy will only be a mechanical tie.

One coat of poly will not give any UV protection, all of the Poly products recommend at least four coats, to achive UV stability.

While northern latitude will extend the varnish recipe I prescribed, it will also last in harsh UV applications.

Nothing that is done improper will last. 4 coats minimum poly, or 8 coats minimum varnish.

Varnish is an easier repair then Poly. Plus the golden glow of Varnish done right can never be matched by any other product. It's the natural amber that all the synthetics try to replicate.

but can't

Lloyd
Following up on these points, I'm not sure I understand the benefit of the epoxy & 2-part poly steps. Why not just build up multiple coats of a high quality spar varnish from bare teak wood? I have so many coats of Epifane Clear on mine that all I have to do is hit it with some 220 or scotchbrite whenever it starts looking cloudy and slap on another coat. This is usually no sooner than 6 mos., depending on the locale & time of year (my boat is usually on the Chesapeake or parts south). If I wait too long, it will develop tiny surface cracks and I might have to sand a bit deeper to get past them, but it's still not a big job.

I once tried a 2-part urethane (Bristol Finish). It went on & looked great, but I waited too long to maintain it, water & UV inevitably penetrated, the stuff turned color, and it was an absolute disaster getting it all off. With traditional varnish, it will all come off with light scraping if need be.

We all know how great teak is in the harsh marine environment with its natural oils, and how many people either leave it bare or add oil to it. A natural varnish adds even more protection. So I don't get the benefit of trying to seal it off with expensive & toxic 2-part epoxies & poly's. Am I missing something?
__________________
Exile is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2013, 00:44   #45
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,201
Images: 52
Re: Varnish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post

Am I missing something?



Mostly, no. But IMHO the best of both worlds is a full application of a traditional varnish until the grain is filled and some depth is built up, followed by several coats of a high quality polyurethane clear coat. This gives you the depth and color of traditional varnish, with the extremely high gloss and UV protection of polyurethane. It can be repaired or wet sanded and polished like a painted finish too. If it needs to be stripped it strips easily with heat gun and scraper because its mostly traditional varnish. We all have our methods. I prefer "The Ultimate Brightwork System" from Awlgrip. That's Awlspar top coated with Awlbrite. Looks better and lasts longer than anything else I've seen. This method is time consuming, expensive, and technically challenging. But it does give the very best results.
__________________

__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:01.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.