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Old 24-07-2016, 23:22   #106
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

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Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post
That's the same distinction we have between (i) a block; and (ii) a snatch block.


I'll make a first diversion to point out that 'snatch block' arrived in nautical English about 1625. The qualifying adjective 'snatch' had been in nautical English earlier: around 1485 it shows up as a marker of things that could be quickly and easily attached to something else - and in almost all cases it involved use of a hinge. I have found it difficult to trace that word, 'snatch'; my best guesses involve a Middle English agricultural word from 1341 snasche, a hasp, a catch for fastening; and earlier Middle English snecchan, from 1225, referring to the jaws of a dog (which, like us, has a hinged lower jaw that can close on its fixed upper jaw; both jaws are not hinged, only the lower mandible).

There is NO WAY, absolutely NO WAY I would consider incorporating the word "snatch" into the name of this new system

Then again, you have me thinking. Soft Snatch Shackle is short and memorable .
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Old 24-07-2016, 23:37   #107
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Then again, you have me thinking. Soft Snatch Shackle is short and memorable .
I would advise going with your first reaction. 4x4 drivers refer to an elastic towing strop as a snatch strop. So avoid that.


I like 'diamond'. If you don't like 'diamond' but would be happy with a 'new' word, here are two articles to read and meditate upon:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajra


https://global.britannica.com/topic/vajra
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Old 25-07-2016, 00:15   #108
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

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Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post
I would advise going with your first reaction. 4x4 drivers refer to an elastic towing strop as a snatch strop. So avoid that.


I like 'diamond'. If you don't like 'diamond' but would be happy with a 'new' word, here are two articles to read and meditate upon:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajra


https://global.britannica.com/topic/vajra
I think the type of word needed is something distinctive and I think it needs to describe the weave itself that has a diamond shape in the centre of it, as this can be used in multiple systems, such as the two others I have shown above.

Soft Diamond Shackle could be confused for any shackle incorporating a diamond stopper. It has nothing to do with the stopper, instead it is what I have called the "diamond weave" that is critical.

A modification of any kind of soft shackle can be used. All it distinctly needs is twin legs in the portion the weave is to be made and it needs the weave to be locked on both sides. Some types of soft shackle systems will end up longer, some will be stronger, some will have a tail sticking out of the stopper, some will have buried tails, some stoppers will be easier to tie, some will use a toggle as a stopper, some could have partially buried portions centrally ........ etc.

I selected a diamond knot stopper here, as I wanted to produce the shortest possible version (the diamond acts as a lock on one side of the weave).

SWL
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Old 25-07-2016, 00:30   #109
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I think the type of word needed is something distinctive and I think it needs to describe the weave itself that has a diamond shape in the centre of it, as this can be used in multiple systems, such as the two others I have shown above.

Soft Diamond Shackle could be confused for any shackle incorporating a diamond stopper. It has nothing to do with the stopper, instead it is what I have called the "diamond weave" that is critical.
Understood.


That's why I suggested 'vajra'. It has the meaning.


And look at the heads (the two club ends) of a vajra (see the image in both the Wikipedia and Britannica articles at the two URLs)!
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Old 25-07-2016, 00:49   #110
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

Wow, what a tour de force of erudition from Alan Mighty -- absolutely fascinating.

This is what I love about Cruisers' Forum -- how could you ever get such a combination of minds and knowledge and experience in one room, in real life?

In my opinion, "strop" is precisely the correct, technical, nautical term for all these devices, at least, for the flexible part (the ring may be something different).

I don't claim the authority of either Falconer's or Alan himself, but "strop" has an absolutely clear meaning to me as a sailor from a sailing family.

A strop is a flexible connection, static, not dynamic, not long enough to be called a rope or a line, between two pieces of gear, or anchoring some piece of gear. Very typically spliced and circular, but not necessarily -- a chain strop, for example, for belaying your anchor chain.

To my mind, the essence of strophood is that it is too short to become a line or to be used as a line. Its function is HOLD something, or JOIN somethings, not to haul something. That's a STROP.

If SWL wants to name the whole device including the ring, she'll have to make something up, because low friction rings have only been recently been invented. It's nothing like a snatch block, because the devices doesn't "snatch" the line it's being used on -- the Antal Hook does that, and it's different. Anyway "snatch block" brings chastity belts to mind. "Low Friction Ring On an Opening Strop, to be Used as a Turning Block Etc." would be precise, I guess.

You could call the strop a "shackle", since it opens, but I don't like that -- the function is less shackle (simple joining) than strop (belaying, attaching, in a wider scope of ways), to my ear, anyway. The fact that it opens is a relatively trivial part of the idea of the thing. There is some overlap between what is a "shackle" and what is a "strop", since we started using "soft shackles", but I think you have to look at what the given device is doing -- the word should describe the function first of all. So to my mind, this is clearly a strop.

Concerning "vajra" -- an amusing and erudite word for this, but to my mind such fanciful appellations, referring to magical or religious concepts, do not add to clarity or understanding. You might as well call it the "Super Wonder Doo-Dad", or the "Magic Sheet Lead Gizmo"; or "The Hand of Shiva Holds My Low Friction Eye in His Mighty Grip". Far better to use a proper and understandable nautical term, if one is reasonably applicable, and here in my opinion, it's much more than just "reasonably applicable". Sailors have invented thousands of different types of strops over thousands of years. But they're all called "strops", when they do essentially the same thing, in more or less the same way.
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Old 25-07-2016, 01:18   #111
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
. StuM, you are an expert on knots - has anything like this been described in Ashley's?

I've stayed out of this until now because I don't have any low friction rings to play with.

But I have been following it with interest.

FWIW:

ABOK #889 shows a "messenger strap" which is as close as you will get to a soft shackle.
It is a spritsail sheet knot tied using the four ends of two loops a rope. The knot is secured through an eye seized half way round the pair of loops.

ABOK#3180 shows a "button and eye strap" around a block - again very similar application.

(Ashley consistently uses the work "strap" for what we are calling a strop). So I'm happy to call a soft shackle a strop or strap.


ABOK# 3278 onwards covers a range of dead-eyes, bull's-eys and hearts - early versions of today's low friction rings.

In all cases they are secured by seizings. I can't find anything like your diamond weave, so unless someone can point elsewhere, I'm calling it a new invention!
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Old 25-07-2016, 01:24   #112
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post


Humans like sounds. A surprising number of words we use are sounds (without meaning). Look at a couple of nautical words we use most every day: pump (seems to have originated in English and spread to other languages - most probably just the sound of the device working)
Or to put it another way: onomatopoeia


Quote:
and hoist (a nautical word that most possibly originated among crews of mixed language origins working the North Sea - all research suggests it's just a noise to get workers to synchronize their effort pulling on a halyard).
1540s, "to raise, lift, elevate," especially with a rope or tackle, earlier hoise (c. 1500), from Middle English hysse (late 15c.), which probably is from Middle Dutch hyssen (Dutch hijsen) "to hoist," related to Low German hissen and Old Norse hissa upp "raise," Danish heise, Swedish hissa. A nautical word found in most European languages (French hisser, Italian issare, Spanish izar), but it is uncertain which coined it.
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Old 25-07-2016, 01:26   #113
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Wow, what a tour de force of erudition from Alan Mighty -- absolutely fascinating.

This is what I love about Cruisers' Forum -- how could you ever get such a combination of minds and knowledge and experience in one room, in real life?
I love this about CF too . Particularly as I am isolated cruising essentially full time.
I also enjoy tossing ideas around without fear of ridicule (some of my ideas are a bit wacky at times ) and getting feedback and inspiration from all sorts of sources. I would never have tackled this project had your enquiring mind not initiated a discussion on the subject of strops in general, so thank you for this.


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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
In my opinion, "strop" is precisely the correct, technical, nautical term for all these devices, at least, for the flexible part (the ring may be something different).

I don't claim the authority of either Falconer's or Alan himself, but "strop" has an absolutely clear meaning to me as a sailor from a sailing family.

A strop is a flexible connection, not long enough to be called a rope or a line, between two pieces of gear, or anchoring some piece of gear. Very typically spliced and circular, but not necessarily -- a chain strop, for example, for belaying your anchor chain.

To my mind, the essence of strophood is that it is too short to become a line or to be used as a line. Its function is HOLD something, or JOIN somethings, not to haul something. That's a STROP.
OK,
All three are strops then. How do we distinguish between the three types though? They all have their uses.


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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
If SWL wants to name the whole device including the ring, she'll have to make something up, because low friction rings have only been recently been invented. It's nothing like a snatch block, because the devices doesn't "snatch" the line it's being used on -- the Antal Hook does that, and it's different. Anyway "snatch block" brings chastity belts to mind. "Low Friction Ring On an Opening Strop, to be Used as a Turning Block Etc." would be precise, I guess.

You could call the strop a "shackle", since it opens, but I don't like that -- the function is less shackle (simple joining) than strop (belaying, attaching, in a wider scope of ways), to my ear, anyway. The fact that it opens is a relatively trivial part of the idea of the thing. There is some overlap between what is a "shackle" and what is a "strop", since we started using "soft shackles", but I think you have to look at what the given device is doing -- the word should describe the function first of all. So to my mind, this is clearly a strop.
LOL! I did say there was NO WAY I was incorporating the word "snatch" .
The devices are used to capture things like low friction rings rather than lines, so "snatch" is not entirely inappropriate though. They are snatching the low friction ring in place.

Other things could possibly be captured (don't know what yet, but there is potential), so although that why I developed the weave, I don't think "low friction ring" should be added to the name.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Concerning "vajra" -- an amusing and erudite word for this, but to my mind such fanciful appellations, referring to magical or religious concepts, do not add to clarity or understanding. You might as well call it the "Super Wonder Doo-Dad", or the "Magic Sheet Lead Gizmo"; or "The Hand of Shiva Holds My Low Friction Eye in His Mighty Grip". Far better to use a proper and understandable nautical term, if one is reasonably applicable, and here in my opinion, it's much more than just "reasonably applicable".
I, too, would prefer a nautical term for this weave, but I can't find one. It is the weave itself with the diamond shape in the centre that needs naming, as that is the unique bit and is incorporated in some way for the 3 different strops I have shown.

Using the word "diamond" is confusing though, as people may think it needs a diamond stopper. This has nothing to do with it. The stopper is incidental in the soft shackle arrangement.

Dockhead, you excel in this area. What is short, descriptive and distinctive that could be used as part of the name for all the strops that incorporate this weave? One or two words preferably, not a dissertation .

SWL
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Old 25-07-2016, 01:28   #114
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Then again, you have me thinking. Soft Snatch Shackle is short and memorable .
Try saying "soft snatch shackle" three times, fast
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Old 25-07-2016, 01:35   #115
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
If SWL wants to name the whole device including the ring, she'll have to make something up, because low friction rings have only been recently been invented.
Maybe so, but bull's-eyes, deadeyes and hearts have been used for a very similar purpose for hundreds of years.
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Old 25-07-2016, 01:38   #116
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
I've stayed out of this until now because I don't have any low friction rings to play with.

But I have been following it with interest.

FWIW:

ABOK #889 shows a "messenger strap" which is as close as you will get to a soft shackle.
It is a spritsail sheet knot tied using the four ends of two loops a rope. The knot is secured through an eye seized half way round the pair of loops.

ABOK#3180 shows a "button and eye strap" around a block - again very similar application.

(Ashley consistently uses the work "strap" for what we are calling a strop). So I'm happy to call a soft shackle a strop or strap.


ABOK# 3278 onwards covers a range of dead-eyes, bull's-eys and hearts - early versions of today's low friction rings.

In all cases they are secured by seizings. I can't find anything like your diamond weave, so unless someone can point elsewhere, I'm calling it a new invention!
That is great news. I am really chuffed if I have invented a new weave .

A few of the knots I have stumbled on that look good have subsequently been found in Ashley's. I remember a couple of years ago getting all excited about what you and member Jolly Jack Tar embarassingly later pointed out was the Hunter bend.

Stu, thanks for all your help. Not just now, but for introducing me to the Zeppelin bend and for your help during the few years where my interest in ropework has grown. My mentor in this area .

SWL x
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Old 25-07-2016, 01:50   #117
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

How about "cross-weave strop" ?
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Old 25-07-2016, 01:53   #118
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
I've stayed out of this until now because I don't have any low friction rings to play with.

But I have been following it with interest.

FWIW:

ABOK #889 shows a "messenger strap" which is as close as you will get to a soft shackle.
It is a spritsail sheet knot tied using the four ends of two loops a rope. The knot is secured through an eye seized half way round the pair of loops.

ABOK#3180 shows a "button and eye strap" around a block - again very similar application.

(Ashley consistently uses the work "strap" for what we are calling a strop). So I'm happy to call a soft shackle a strop or strap.


ABOK# 3278 onwards covers a range of dead-eyes, bull's-eys and hearts - early versions of today's low friction rings.

In all cases they are secured by seizings. I can't find anything like your diamond weave, so unless someone can point elsewhere, I'm calling it a new invention!
Concerning "strap" vs "strop" -- I think that "strap" is an old corruption of "strop", and means basically the same thing. "Strap" is maybe less desirable because it carries later land connotations which are evolved away from the original nautical meaning, but I find it perfectly understandable.

Also I think "strap" is in fairly common usage in nautical contexts -- e.g. "kicking strap".
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Old 25-07-2016, 01:58   #119
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

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Maybe so, but bull's-eyes, deadeyes and hearts have been used for a very similar purpose for hundreds of years.
You are absolutely correct. I withdraw my earlier comment. I had forgotten all about those.

"Bullseye -- A fairlead, usually made of lignum vitae, fashioned with a hole for the line to run through, and a channel carved in the outer perimeter as a seat for a tether."

Truly nothing new under the sun.

So maybe we should be calling "low friction rings" "bullseyes"?

Maybe SWL's device should be called a "Crossweave Bullseye Strop"?
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Old 25-07-2016, 02:22   #120
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops (eg for low friction rings)

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You are absolutely correct. I withdraw my earlier comment. I had forgotten all about those.

"Bullseye -- A fairlead, usually made of lignum vitae, fashioned with a hole for the line to run through, and a channel carved in the outer perimeter as a seat for a tether."

Truly nothing new under the sun.

So maybe we should be calling "low friction rings" "bullseyes"?

Maybe SWL's device should be called a "Crossweave Bullseye Strop"?
How about plain "Bullseye Strops"?
That is nice and simple and has a good ring to it. I like it very much .

They could be in the form of soft shackles or loops, retaining one or two objects or maybe more, I have not explored all the possibilities yet.

SWL
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