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Old 13-02-2016, 08:48   #1
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Two-Piece Furling Line?

I've mentioned it before in other threads, but I don't like the furling line arrangement for my principle headsail.

The furler is a Selden 400S, which works well. But the 12mm double braid furling line fills the drum, and often piles up on it, even jamming from time to time. I have experimented with trying to untwist it one way or the other, and probably if I could eliminate all twist, it would work better, but I have some to the conclusion that it would work a whole lot better if there were simply less rope on the drum.

One thing I've considered is downsizing from 12mm to 10mm. 10mm Marlowbraid (it's lower stretch, with a three-strand core) has breaking strength of about 2850kg, compared to 4450kg for the 12mm, but that still seems like plenty to me. Uncivilized on another thread pointed out that the furling line will be carrying some fraction of the sheet loads with the sail partially furled, point well taken.

So maybe this is a case for using Dyneema? There are two ways I can see:

1. 12mm or 10mm Dyneema and strip the cover.

2. Join a piece of normal 12mm double braid to a piece of single braid Dyneema.


I kind of like the second variant, which will be much cheaper. However it's joined, however, would have to pass freely through the stanchion blocks.


What do you guys think? Anyone ever tried something like this?
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Old 13-02-2016, 09:10   #2
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Believe it or not, my rigger and I stripped the *core* from my (main, in-boom) furling line. Of course, the cover was made of the same high-strength fiber as the core. Anyway, it is plenty strong, no longer overfills the drum, goes through the blocks smoothly, and the unstripped tail fits the clutch.

I will be interested to hear what sort of low-bulk splice might work with the two different diameter and fiber lines. I've learned that having a furling line part in strong winds is no fun at all.
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Old 13-02-2016, 10:29   #3
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
Believe it or not, my rigger and I stripped the *core* from my (main, in-boom) furling line. Of course, the cover was made of the same high-strength fiber as the core. Anyway, it is plenty strong, no longer overfills the drum, goes through the blocks smoothly, and the unstripped tail fits the clutch.

I will be interested to hear what sort of low-bulk splice might work with the two different diameter and fiber lines. I've learned that having a furling line part in strong winds is no fun at all.
The CORE?? That's just bizarre. At least to me.

10mm dyneema costs about 6 euros/m, so if I just make it out of that (and probably stripping it would be superfluous then), then my furling line will cost 180 euros, or 200-odd dollars. Pretty expensive furling line. But it will be half the weight of the old one, and run through the blocks better, and lay far better on the drum. Maybe the way to go.

I am still very interested to hear if anyone thinks the two-piece solution could work.
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Old 13-02-2016, 14:45   #4
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Bet you could strip the dacron cover off a Dyneema cored line from the bow to the point where you hand it or it goes through a clutch and solve your problem. Very commonly done on halyards and running rigging. If the cover is properly seized where it ends and just the core section begins it should go through any fairlead or block with out issue. 3/8" Dyneema cored line would probably have all the strength needed but might want to check with Selden for what they recommend. If 1/2" line is causing problems, sounds like the furler was not designed for line that large in any case.

For my hands, 3/8"/10mm is the minimal size to effectively give a grip for maximum pulling force and then it's just marginal. If you are going to be doing some serious yanking on this line, might consider 11mm. It's way easier on the hands than 10mm and significantly less bulk.

As far as cost, could 54' of boat have something to do with it.
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Old 13-02-2016, 15:12   #5
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Bet you could strip the dacron cover off a Dyneema cored line from the bow to the point where you hand it or it goes through a clutch and solve your problem. Very commonly done on halyards and running rigging. If the cover is properly seized where it ends and just the core section begins it should go through any fairlead or block with out issue. 3/8" Dyneema cored line would probably have all the strength needed but might want to check with Selden for what they recommend. If 1/2" line is causing problems, sounds like the furler was not designed for line that large in any case.

For my hands, 3/8"/10mm is the minimal size to effectively give a grip for maximum pulling force and then it's just marginal. If you are going to be doing some serious yanking on this line, might consider 11mm. It's way easier on the hands than 10mm and significantly less bulk.

As far as cost, could 54' of boat have something to do with it.
Thanks.

I'm not too concerned about yanking on the furling line -- all my furling is done with an electric winch. With 1200 square feet of jib, it's beyond human strength without a winch. So I guess a 10mm line would be ok.

Naturally I'm familiar with the practice of stripping the cover off part of a dyneema line -- that was the first option in my post earlier. A 12mm dyneema line would be perfect, and no problem with running through blocks or anything. But quite expensive.

If I could just buy 10 meters of single braid dyneema, and somehow join it to the end of my existing furling line, it would solve all my problems at minimal expense.
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Old 13-02-2016, 15:29   #6
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

I was just glancing through the forums, to see what was new, & saw this thread. Which, it's theme has me scratching my head. As at it's core, it poses the questions:

- What in the (simple) math, which I & several other (well acknowledged, industry) experts laid out (repeatedly), regarding necessary line strength, is unclear (now)? Especially as when it was laid out yesterday, it was acknowledged as making total sense.

- From whence stems the seemingly Huge angst over the price of a decent Roller Furling Line (or set of Jib Sheets), for a vessel which costs more than any home which 99% of the population will own?

Boats eat money, period. And lots of it. Always have, always will.
And yes, at this point, I realize that my asking the above questions are mostly rhetorical; as they'll be fully, or honetly answered. But still, the ideas behind them do make me wonder.
For, Bottom Line; it's as if the thought & time which I & others put into laying out their solutions before, is flat out wasted. --> To which, Yes, I take offense.

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Old 13-02-2016, 16:33   #7
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
I was just glancing through the forums, to see what was new, & saw this thread. Which, it's theme has me scratching my head. As at it's core, it poses the questions:

- What in the (simple) math, which I & several other (well acknowledged, industry) experts laid out (repeatedly), regarding necessary line strength, is unclear (now)? Especially as when it was laid out yesterday, it was acknowledged as making total sense.

- From whence stems the seemingly Huge angst over the price of a decent Roller Furling Line (or set of Jib Sheets), for a vessel which costs more than any home which 99% of the population will own?

Boats eat money, period. And lots of it. Always have, always will.
And yes, at this point, I realize that my asking the above questions are mostly rhetorical; as they'll be fully, or honetly answered. But still, the ideas behind them do make me wonder.
For, Bottom Line; it's as if the thought & time which I & others put into laying out their solutions before, is flat out wasted. --> To which, Yes, I take offense.

Ciao
??

What?


Your point about strength of the furling line was taken and acknowledged. It was something new and useful for me -- I hadn't really thought about it.

But the larger point is why do you care so much, whether people take your advice or not? When I have some knowledge to contribute, I give a lot of advice, to the extent no doubt of being boring no doubt. Some people take it, some people argue with it, some people ignore it. That is just the nature of forums like this, and it shouldn't bother you.

Not that I ignore anything you write. You have a wealth of knowledge, much of which is unfamiliar to cruisers.

Concerning cost -- now this is a real difference between racers and cruisers, which may be hard for you to understand. For you guys, the rig and sails are just about the only priority, so of course you will buy ropes first, and ask questions later. Not so for us cruisers. My repair list for this spring runs to four pages, and there is a lot of competition for every pound sterling, every penny. I doubt if any of the cruisers on here will find it strange, that I'm weighing options for furling lines, considering the cost of the various options.
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Old 13-02-2016, 16:42   #8
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

2. Join a piece of normal 12mm double braid to a piece of single braid Dyneema.


What do you guys think? Anyone ever tried something like this?
The question is whether half the 12mm line strength is satisfactory at the join. If it is there are a couple common and easy splices that will be smooth and run well. If you need more than 1/2 strength . . . . It is possible but there is much higher skill level and knowledge required, and is not often done.
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Old 13-02-2016, 17:43   #9
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
The question is whether half the 12mm line strength is satisfactory at the join. If it is there are a couple common and easy splices that will be smooth and run well. If you need more than 1/2 strength . . . . It is possible but there is much higher skill level and knowledge required, and is not often done.
No, it definitely won't be. I am spoiled with single braid dyneema which keeps nearly all of its strength in a brummel eye splice, a splice which I am pleased to have learned to do with reasonable proficiency.

So I guess a regular dyneema line is it. 12mm stripped cover or 10mm not.
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Old 13-02-2016, 18:36   #10
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
The question is whether half the 12mm line strength is satisfactory at the join. If it is there are a couple common and easy splices that will be smooth and run well. If you need more than 1/2 strength . . . . It is possible but there is much higher skill level and knowledge required, and is not often done.
Would not an eye splice in each line and join them luggage tag fashion work??
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Old 13-02-2016, 18:38   #11
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Well, if anyone is interested . . . . Here is how the "double braid to single braid, no bulge, no strength loss" is accomplished.

1. You push back the cover on the double braid, and cut the core off say about 30cm.

2 you push the cover back even more say a meter, and you do a strand by strand taper on the core - right down to one strand at the end.

3. With the single braid you do an exactly matching taper.

4. You then splice the single braid and the core together. There are a couple ways to this merge, I think the most common is to unbraid both and braid them together. You can also lay them alongside each other and 'sew' together using the ends of each strand (about three tucks for each strand).

5. You then push the cover back over the core to single braid join, and taper the 30cm of cover that is past the join.

It is not that much harder that the old wire to rope join that was used on halyards . . . . But most people today either strip cover off or add cover to single braid which are a lot less labor and skill.
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Old 13-02-2016, 18:56   #12
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Well, if anyone is interested . . . . Here is how the "double braid to single braid, no bulge, no strength loss" is accomplished.

1. You push back the cover on the double braid, and cut the core off say about 30cm.

2 you push the cover back even more say a meter, and you do a strand by strand taper on the core - right down to one strand at the end.

3. With the single braid you do an exactly matching taper.

4. You then splice the single braid and the core together. There are a couple ways to this merge, I think the most common is to unbraid both and braid them together. You can also lay them alongside each other and 'sew' together using the ends of each strand (about three tucks for each strand).

5. You then push the cover back over the core to single braid join, and taper the 30cm of cover that is past the join.

It is not that much harder that the old wire to rope join that was used on halyards . . . . But most people today either strip cover off or add cover to single braid which are a lot less labor and skill.
Here is how I've done it in the past:

Splicing Amsteel to Sta-Set

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Old 13-02-2016, 19:37   #13
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

^^ yes, that's a good splice . . . But there is a short section of that splice that is thicker (and usually a bit stiffer) than the original double braid line - where you have cover, core and single braid all together - correct?

If I compare to 3 strand splices - that one is like the short splice (strong but there is an obvious splice), and the one I described is the long splice (so smoothly blended in it is not an obvious splice).

Just depends on how sensitive the system is to "smooth"
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Old 13-02-2016, 19:48   #14
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

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^^ yes, that's a good splice . . . But there is a section (2" or so) of that splice that is thicker (and usually a bit stiffer) than the original double braid line - where you have cover, core and single braid all together - correct?

It's pretty firm at the splice, and doesn't lessen with use, but the small increase in diameter doesn't affect most uses. I can't see it causing issue in the furling gear, unless it has a small bullseye fairlead.

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Old 14-02-2016, 01:27   #15
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

I firmly understand that this is an internet forum. And that (supposedly) people come here to learn. However, when an essentially identical topic is gone over 3+ times, by the same folks posting the query (meaning that they saying that they "want to learn").
And I have spent quite a bit of time fully explaining things, to the acknowledged understanding of those asking the questions, yet the knowledge gets rebuffed: Then that is when I feel that my time is best used elsewhere.
And yes, it does make me a little riled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
??

What?

Your point about strength of the furling line was taken and acknowledged. It was something new and useful for me -- I hadn't really thought about it.
Note: The veracity of it being new to you is not one in accordance with facts. As such information was covered, in depth, 6 months ago, here Best Source for New Pretty Rope/Line

In said post, the wisdom of using Spectra/Dyneema for; Sheets, Halyards, Roller Furling Lines, & other uses was covered.
Including the "why", behind the fiscal wisdoms of using Dyneema for same (albeit said wisdom was rebuffed). And this same ground was covered in several different posts, once again, in the last 3 days. With maybe(?) a glimmer of a lightbulb's going on since then?
This, even with all of the explanatory math being laid out.

That's where my frustration stems from. The facts of;
- Unquestionable resistance to change.
- "I'll ask to learn, but then want to go back to the old ways".
- It's a "Racing" thing, rather than just Sailing. With the immense stigma attached to anything "racing" on here.
I mean, heck. Bottom line, it's just learning. Why & where is there a problem with that?

But the larger point is why do you care so much, whether people take your advice or not? When I have some knowledge to contribute, I give a lot of advice, to the extent no doubt of being boring no doubt. Some people take it, some people argue with it, some people ignore it. That is just the nature of forums like this, and it shouldn't bother you.
As you say, for the most part folks liking my advice or not isn't a key issue. Though the point about repeatedly teaching on the same topics, a multiplicity of times, to the same folks, IS an issue (to me). For reasons stated. And that likely it would give any reasonable man, pause.

Not that I ignore anything you write. You have a wealth of knowledge, much of which is unfamiliar to cruisers.
I appreciate the compliment. And am ore than happy to share what I know about sailing; with folks on here, & in the real world.

Concerning cost -- now this is a real difference between racers and cruisers, which may be hard for you to understand. For you guys, the rig and sails are just about the only priority, so of course you will buy ropes first, and ask questions later. Not so for us cruisers. My repair list for this spring runs to four pages, and there is a lot of competition for every pound sterling, every penny. I doubt if any of the cruisers on here will find it strange, that I'm weighing options for furling lines, considering the cost of the various options.
The budget difference between racers & cruisers, all of whom are sailors, isn't based on what part(s) of the sport which they use their boats to pursue. Or the thickness of their wallets.
It is based upon how much money they are willing to spend on sailing, & where their priorities for that budget lay.

As there are a LOT of "cruisers" out there, with plenty of racing gear on their boats. Your suite of Vectran sails, for instance. And their latest generation (racing style) design Jib Leads. Both about which you ranted & raved, when you got them. Or full on performance instrument suites on "cruising boats", etc.
ALL of that equipment is racing gear, & or has come Directly from racing. Without question. So do those things make you a racer? 10 -15yrs ago, the answer would have been YES.

I'm a sailor. Period. And I do/have done, quite a lot of both racing & cruising, for my whole life.
And "in the course of my travels", I've fitted out far more boats than you've had birthdays: Racers, & Cruisers, for; a week, a month, a season, a year, or part of a circumnavigation.
So I'm intimately famailiar with where the money goes. As well as how tight it can be at times. Such as when I cruised my Searunner on $200/month (the price of your furling line). And I did so for a couple of years on said budget.

If it suits you to call me a racer, then go ahead. Bottom line, yes, I've learned eminantly more about sailing via that aspect of the sport, than I have via cruising.
It's kept me fed, amongst other necessities. As too have; Deliveries, Teaching, Skippering Cruiging Boats, etc., etc.
Does that make the knowledge less valuable, or not worth sharing?
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