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Old 14-02-2016, 11:29   #16
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

There is really not much truly "new" here . . . Allen's splice design is a slight modification to the standard class II double braid splice (modified to remove the steps associated with the 2nd cover). The splice I was suggesting is in essence a double commercial single braid tuck splice - once for the cores and again for the cover. And there is a third option where you unbraid both lines and then braid them back together into a single braid. These are all full strength. They are listed in order of skill (easiest to hardest). The first one has the lumpiest splice point (but, yes, I agree it is not all that lumpy and is often no problem). The third one is the most inspect-able, while the second is the cleanest.

But none are much used in yachting, because the cover stripping/adding is so easy. There are more commonly used in commercial applications where the high strength rope can cost $100/ft and it is worth saving every possible ft.
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Old 14-02-2016, 11:51   #17
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Thumbs down Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
There is really not much truly "new" here . . . Allen's splice design is a slight modification to the standard class II double braid splice (modified to remove the steps associated with the 2nd cover). The splice I was suggesting is in essence a double commercial single braid tuck splice - once for the cores and again for the cover. And there is a third option where you unbraid both lines and then braid them back together into a single braid. These are all full strength. They are listed in order of skill (easiest to hardest). The first one has the lumpiest splice point (but, yes, I agree it is not all that lumpy and is often no problem). The third one is the most inspect-able, while the second is the cleanest.

But none are much used in yachting, because the cover stripping/adding is so easy. There are more commonly used in commercial applications where the high strength rope can cost $100/ft and it is worth saving every possible ft.
Yeah, the third option of the splice with braiding the cover is way past my splicing ability so I've just followed the easy method Allen shows in the link. We used this method on our last boat's main halyard, but in that application, there wasn't much savings over just buying a dyneema cored rope since so much cover is removed.

We're seeing a bigger savings by using this method for our runners (yet to be installed). I've made fiddle blocks using Antal low friction rings and I'm using 3/8" Sta-set for the majority of the tackle with 3/16" Amsteel for the last bit where the low friction of the line will help tensioning. I'll see how this goes and if it doesn't work, I've left enough length of Sta-set to convert to a normal fiddle block arrangement.

Thanks for the post.

Matt
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Old 14-02-2016, 12:31   #18
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
I firmly understand that this is an internet forum. And that (supposedly) people come here to learn. However, when an essentially identical topic is gone over 3+ times, by the same folks posting the query (meaning that they saying that they "want to learn").
And I have spent quite a bit of time fully explaining things, to the acknowledged understanding of those asking the questions, yet the knowledge gets rebuffed: Then that is when I feel that my time is best used elsewhere.
And yes, it does make me a little riled.


The budget difference between racers & cruisers, all of whom are sailors, isn't based on what part(s) of the sport which they use their boats to pursue. Or the thickness of their wallets.
It is based upon how much money they are willing to spend on sailing, & where their priorities for that budget lay.

As there are a LOT of "cruisers" out there, with plenty of racing gear on their boats. Your suite of Vectran sails, for instance. And their latest generation (racing style) design Jib Leads. Both about which you ranted & raved, when you got them. Or full on performance instrument suites on "cruising boats", etc.
ALL of that equipment is racing gear, & or has come Directly from racing. Without question. So do those things make you a racer? 10 -15yrs ago, the answer would have been YES.

I'm a sailor. Period. And I do/have done, quite a lot of both racing & cruising, for my whole life.
And "in the course of my travels", I've fitted out far more boats than you've had birthdays: Racers, & Cruisers, for; a week, a month, a season, a year, or part of a circumnavigation.
So I'm intimately famailiar with where the money goes. As well as how tight it can be at times. Such as when I cruised my Searunner on $200/month (the price of your furling line). And I did so for a couple of years on said budget.

If it suits you to call me a racer, then go ahead. Bottom line, yes, I've learned eminantly more about sailing via that aspect of the sport, than I have via cruising.
It's kept me fed, amongst other necessities. As too have; Deliveries, Teaching, Skippering Cruiging Boats, etc., etc.
Does that make the knowledge less valuable, or not worth sharing?
Peace, brother You are somehow tone deaf to what I write. The racing knowledge is incredibly valuable to cruisers who (like me) love to sail, and want to sail better. How could you possibly think that this is any kind of a negative? That's why we ask so many questions, when a racer is around.

Still scratching my head here. We're having a completely normal conversation, with people asking questions and sharing knowledge. Sometimes we talk about the same things over and over again; very often the same questions are asked again and again. Advice is taken, argued, ignored, whatever. And once again from the beginning. That's just the way it goes around here. Why in the world would you be upset that I'm still chewing on the furling line question? It wasn't even a completely stupid idea; as you see here others are using the same idea for runners and even -- halyards.

Maybe a beer? :beer:
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Old 14-02-2016, 12:37   #19
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
There is really not much truly "new" here . . . Allen's splice design is a slight modification to the standard class II double braid splice (modified to remove the steps associated with the 2nd cover). The splice I was suggesting is in essence a double commercial single braid tuck splice - once for the cores and again for the cover. And there is a third option where you unbraid both lines and then braid them back together into a single braid. These are all full strength. They are listed in order of skill (easiest to hardest). The first one has the lumpiest splice point (but, yes, I agree it is not all that lumpy and is often no problem). The third one is the most inspect-able, while the second is the cleanest.

But none are much used in yachting, because the cover stripping/adding is so easy. There are more commonly used in commercial applications where the high strength rope can cost $100/ft and it is worth saving every possible ft.
Hi Evans:

You say these are "full strength" -- so full strength of both ropes is preserved? I thought you had said at one point that 50% of strength would be lost -- was that some other method of joining the lines?
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Old 14-02-2016, 17:32   #20
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Hi Evans:

You say these are "full strength" -- so full strength of both ropes is preserved? I thought you had said at one point that 50% of strength would be lost -- was that some other method of joining the lines?
Full strength of the weaker rope is preserved thru these splices.

50% is preserved in a fourth splice, which is the most common "no bulge no hard point" splice - in that splice you essentially cut away either the core or the cover of the double braid (thus losing 50% strength) and joining the remaining bits as single braid to single braid. This is really easy to do, and in a lot of applications is fine in strength because you have sized for stretch or for handling (which both generally give you excess strength) .
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Old 14-02-2016, 17:58   #21
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Full strength of the weaker rope is preserved thru these splices.

50% is preserved in a fourth splice, which is the most common "no bulge no hard point" splice - in that splice you essentially cut away either the core or the cover of the double braid (thus losing 50% strength) and joining the remaining bits as single braid to single braid. This is really easy to do, and in a lot of applications is fine in strength because you have sized for stretch or for handling (which both generally give you excess strength) .
Now it's clear -- thank you!
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Old 14-02-2016, 18:26   #22
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Peace, brother You are somehow tone deaf to what I write. The racing knowledge is incredibly valuable to cruisers who (like me) love to sail, and want to sail better. How could you possibly think that this is any kind of a negative? That's why we ask so many questions, when a racer is around.

Still scratching my head here. We're having a completely normal conversation, with people asking questions and sharing knowledge. Sometimes we talk about the same things over and over again; very often the same questions are asked again and again. Advice is taken, argued, ignored, whatever. And once again from the beginning. That's just the way it goes around here. Why in the world would you be upset that I'm still chewing on the furling line question? It wasn't even a completely stupid idea; as you see here others are using the same idea for runners and even -- halyards.

Maybe a beer? :beer:
On attempting to get you to see your true opinion of racers, racing, & the knowledge + technology which they bring to sailing; would be, & has been, a futile waste of my time & efforts. As it is, even when you're shown these truths via your own posted words.

If you ever decide to spend, a few hundred, or (better) a few thousand hours racing, then; you may have room to comment, & perhaps judge. But until then, you've little to stand upon.

So regarding as such discussions, I'll kindly bow out. For as they say: "There's little point in getting into the mud to wrestle with a hog. As you both get dirty; but the difference is, the hog enjoys it".

PS: Should you ever put in such time racing, I can Guarantee you that you'll learn more about sailing that you can imagine.
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Old 14-02-2016, 19:02   #23
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
On attempting to get you to see your true opinion of racers, racing, & the knowledge + technology which they bring to sailing; would be, & has been, a futile waste of my time & efforts. As it is, even when you're shown these truths via your own posted words.

If you ever decide to spend, a few hundred, or (better) a few thousand hours racing, then; you may have room to comment, & perhaps judge. But until then, you've little to stand upon.

So regarding as such discussions, I'll kindly bow out. For as they say: "There's little point in getting into the mud to wrestle with a hog. As you both get dirty; but the difference is, the hog enjoys it".

PS: Should you ever put in such time racing, I can Guarantee you that you'll learn more about sailing that you can imagine.
What single word did I ever say, which was disrespectful of racers? This is simply bizarre.


By the way, I do have racing experience -- a whole season racing 420's in college. It's how I learned to sail. As I've written a number of times, very few cruisers care much about sailing, which is fine. But it also means that sailing knowledge is somewhat thin on the ground around here. I am always hungry for more, so I hang out with racers as much as I can, both in real life, and online.


What has got you wound up, is beyond all understanding. Hope you feel better in the morning; certainly not the slightest disrespect of any kind, was ever intended.
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Old 14-02-2016, 20:01   #24
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

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The CORE?? That's just bizarre. At least to me.

10mm dyneema costs about 6 euros/m, so if I just make it out of that (and probably stripping it would be superfluous then), then my furling line will cost 180 euros, or 200-odd dollars. Pretty expensive furling line. But it will be half the weight of the old one, and run through the blocks better, and lay far better on the drum. Maybe the way to go.

I am still very interested to hear if anyone thinks the two-piece solution could work.
Actually stripping the core from the first 1/3 of the furlong line is pretty common. When I installed my last furler, the instructions recommended doing just this. 3/8 and above line is plenty strong, even just the cover is strong enough for furling duty.
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Old 14-02-2016, 21:42   #25
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Stripping out the core results in a lay-flat line on the inner portion of the furling drum. Not only does this reduce the bulk of the furled line (as would stripping the core), but the flat line seems to be less likely to get overrides. It's hard to be sure about that though, as I *always* maintain enough tension when unfurling so this has never been a problem.
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Old 14-02-2016, 22:18   #26
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Re: Two-Piece Furling Line?

Just two days ago I paid $200 to replace my staysail furling line with a two piece, two sizes Dyneema furling line to replicate the original. No problems with it until the outer sheath became old and sun damaged, then ripped. From now on, I'll remove it and take it indoors during the off season.

For your Yankee, I recommend replacing the furling system with a Reckman hydraulic furling system.
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