Two or Three Reefs - Now, THAT's the Question !

[daddle]

Originally Posted by DaveOnCudjoe

I like 3 reef points that reduce sail by 60% with a single line and snap hook for the clew. Dave

Can you move the snap hook from one clew to another in a real blow? I can't imagine that being possible or safe on any but the smallest of boats. Letting the first reef fly when you need a second.....perhaps I don't understand?

[SimonV]

Put in the third reef point and make all the reefs deep. I kept the main 3 reefed for 2 weeks crossing the Paciric. I would have liked the 3rd reef point to have been deeper on more than one occasion.

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by colemj

We have three reef points, but only lines rigged for using two of them at any time. When we are coastal cruising or overnighting, we leave the lines in reefs #1 and 2. When offshore, we put the lines in reefs #2 and 3.

Mark

Ditto! Three reef lines get really complicated. I have three reef points but even with a 17' boom there is only room for two sets of purchase blocks.

[svrodeorm]

Guess it's already a consensus on this one.

Just to complicate the answer a bit my preferred setups would be...

LOA < 32' approx. Main w 3 reefs and not necessarily a trisail.

LOA> 32' Main w 2 deep reef points and a tri in dedicated track. Oddshore always tacked in it's bag at the mast.

In the best of worlds... I have still never had to use the tri, except for playing a bit with it in 35-40 knots, but not really needed. would NOT like to be without it though.

[DaveOnCudjoe]

Daddle,
My main is high aspect with the clews nearly directly above each other and the boom end directly above the cockpit. I ease the halyard and tie in the tack, loosen the outhaul and pull in slack to move the hook. It's not so bad but is a scamper at times. I find it preferable to many reef lines fouling at the boom end. Main is 430 sq ft. Dave

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Jon Neely

told me when it gets as knarly, and you need three reefs, you might as well pull down the whole main.
Jon

Hi Jon,

We just have a new main made and had the same dillemma.
I just wanted 2 reefs as that's what we are set up for. But I wanted the second reef deeeeeep.

It works perfectly!!!!!!!!!!!!

As you say, when its knarly you just need a small stitch to keep the boat going or get off a lee shore.

When we hit a squalla few days ago the sail with a deeeeep second reef didn't feel underpowered at all. Nor did it feel underpowered when the wind lightened and I started tossing the reefs.



We are not racing, we're cruising


Mark

[SkiprJohn]

Way to go Mark!
regards,

[klem]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

It's just an extra cleat, right? Or being able to tie a hitch through the cringle to the boom.

It depends on the setup. In the simplest setup, it involves an extra turning block on the boom and a cleat for the clew and something to hold the tack down (these vary widely). On newer boats with fancier booms, they often have everything run inside the boom and back to the cabintop so all of the turning blocks would need to be designed with it in mind.

Something that should be made clear in this thread is that you can choose where the reef points go. Saying that 3 reefs is necessary for going offshore is not correct. Saying that you need the ability to shorten sail by some percentage is a valid statement. 3 reefs with the reefpoints 5 feet apart on the luff is no better than 2 reefs with them 7.5 feet apart in heavy air. What it gives you is more options. For a lot of people, they simply won't take advantage of these options so having 2 spaced far apart is fine whereas other people will use all three, it is personal preference.

[Pblais]

I've sailed a gale plus 5 knots with a double reefed main. Triple would be fine if you had the lines to set the reef from the cockpit. Were I forward thinking I can rig the first reef lines so it could operate the 3rd reef. If you might need the third reef you would probably be certain you needed or will need the second. The idea is re rig the the lines so the first reef is now the second and the second becomes the third. 3rd reef time is when all hell breaks loose. Going forward to set it would be an adventure to tell the folks back home should you make it back to the cockpit. Going forward to set the third reef defines the term "highly dangerous". The force of the wind increase as a squared function so once you get to 40 knots a little more means a whole lot. I generally advocate the "not being there" approach to navigation in those circumstances.

[Weyalan]

Go with 3 reefs. For sure. Yeah, so you don't hardly ever need it, but let me tell you, when you do need it, you will really, really need it, and be glad you have it.

We have turning blocks fitted for all three reef lines, but we generally only run in the 3rd line if we are going offshore, or if the forecast merits it.

Although that 3rd reef is not a whole heap bigger than a trysail, its easier to go to the 3rd reef than get the main down and trysail up.

[TEE]

I once had a 33 foot Beneteau. I learned from that boat, small sailboats with small sail plans don't act like big boats after you get past the first reef. I seriously doubt that if you throw three reefs in on your boat, you would get any efficiency from the main. If you are in weather such that you REALLY need three reefs, you would be better off going with storm jib and trysail, storm jib alone while running downwind, heaving to, or get a small drogue or sea anchor. On the Beneteau I had, after the wind got up past 25 knots, it wouldn't sail to weather anyway, so the only option I had was to use the one reef the main had and the jib to heave to.

[svrodeorm]

Originally Posted by TEE

On the Beneteau I had, after the wind got up past 25 knots, it wouldn't sail to weather anyway, so the only option I had was to use the one reef the main had and the jib to heave to.

OOoccuuch! That's a red flag. If that's true that boat should have a big red 'WARNING' sticker on it....certainly not a design I would like to do any sort of passage in

Exactly what Beneteau was it? year, model etc. shallow draft model?

[TEE]

It was a Moorings 323 built in 2000. That boat was the first and last Beneteau I will ever own. It was also the last Moorings boat I will ever own. Now own a Shannon. It doesn't seem bothered by weather much. Plows through 15 foot seas and 30 knots without much to do about it. Has three reefs; however, by the time you need to go to the third reef, which is at about gale force wind, its time to think about getting out the trysail just so you don't stretch out the main sail shape. Also have a sea anchor, galerider and jordan series drogue on board, but never been in anything over 34 knots very long, and never saw a need to use them.

[svrodeorm]

Originally Posted by TEE

by the time you need to go to the third reef, which is at about gale force wind, its time to think about getting out the trysail just so you don't stretch out the main sail shape. Also have a sea anchor, galerider and jordan series drogue on board, but never been in anything over 34 knots very long, and never saw a need to use them.

Agree on that Never experienced more than 40-45 knots sustained myself, but was fine running under storm jib and hove-to under mizzen alone.(one of the nice features of a ketch) no drama at all. To be able to fore-reach i would have chosen trisail and (perhaps) the storm jib.

That said, I will never try to go to windward in those conditions unless caught out at a lee shore. Heaving to or running under hull speed are my preferred methods of dealing with the 'rough stuff'

[speedoo]

Originally Posted by TEE

It was a Moorings 323 built in 2000. That boat was the first and last Beneteau I will ever own. It was also the last Moorings boat I will ever own. Now own a Shannon. It doesn't seem bothered by weather much. Plows through 15 foot seas and 30 knots without much to do about it. Has three reefs; however, by the time you need to go to the third reef, which is at about gale force wind, its time to think about getting out the trysail just so you don't stretch out the main sail shape. Also have a sea anchor, galerider and jordan series drogue on board, but never been in anything over 34 knots very long, and never saw a need to use them.

I did some poking and found this tuning guided for the Beneteau 323.

http://www.neilprydesails.com/pdfs/3...ng%20Guide.pdf

I assume this is the same as your former Moorings 323. I get the impression from this tuning guide that it's a fairly tender boat, much more suited to light air rather than heavy.

Based on your experience with the boat, what would you say caused it to fail to go to weather in heavy air? It's clearly a very different boat from your Shannon.