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Old 01-02-2016, 14:52   #1
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Turnbuckle Sizing

Hello friends,
As I am gearing up for a rerig in the coming few months I am going to change out the old enclosed turnbuckles that came with the boat and are most likely originals. Now I'm not a naval architect or boat designer so I have no idea how to size these.

I have:
12mm headstay, backstay, lowers
10mm uppers and intermediates

Im not particular about metric over imperial, that's just what came with the boat. I'd go with imperial because it's easier to find here in the states.

Are they sized to the wire strength or chainplate pin hole strength? I was figuring the Hayn 5/8 pin but looking at their site it says for 7/16-1/2 wire needs the 3/4" pin turnbuckles.

Now I'm hoping I only need the 5/8" turnbuckles because they are about a $120 cheaper than the 3/4".

Any information or direction on where to go would be appreciated.

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Old 01-02-2016, 21:39   #2
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

Uh, if you have all the old standing rigging just duplicate what you have but use (or specify your rigger to use) open bodied turnbuckles. If you are only changing the turnbuckle bodies just get ones which your existing pin thread sizes and diameters.
Personally if the standing rigging ten years old I'd take this opportunity to replace it all. Some insurance policies require it. You might want to check with your provider. European companies are more strict than the US companies. BTW there is no economizing with a 47 footer. You gave that up when you decided to join the big boat club.
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Old 01-02-2016, 22:04   #3
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

Riggingonly.com shows the difference as $52/turnbuckle. I replaced 12mm with 7/16 wire and 3/4 turnbuckles. Make sure to match the pin sizes as well. I used 3/8 dyform for the 10mm intermediates, but its really hard to find anymore.
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Old 01-02-2016, 22:25   #4
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
...I am gearing up for a rerig in the coming few months. I am going to change out the old enclosed turnbuckles ...
One thing you should know about is the difference between cut-thread & rolled-thread turnbuckles, & how to tell what you have. We've published a short article on this here, with pictures of crack propagation. The short answer is that you want rolled thread turnbuckles (which West Marine don't even stock) but even when you order them you don't always get them, so you should know how to tell the difference.
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Old 01-02-2016, 23:28   #5
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Hacking View Post
One thing you should know about is the difference between cut-thread & rolled-thread turnbuckles, & how to tell what you have. We've published a short article on this here, with pictures of crack propagation. The short answer is that you want rolled thread turnbuckles (which West Marine don't even stock) but even when you order them you don't always get them, so you should know how to tell the difference.
Great article
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Old 02-02-2016, 00:10   #6
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Hacking View Post
One thing you should know about is the difference between cut-thread & rolled-thread turnbuckles, & how to tell what you have. We've published a short article on this here, with pictures of crack propagation. The short answer is that you want rolled thread turnbuckles (which West Marine don't even stock) but even when you order them you don't always get them, so you should know how to tell the difference.
Is it the turnbuckle that has the rolled/cut threads or the studs that screw into the turnbuckle?


I have always thought, without questioning it further, that it was when selecting terminals or studs that one specified rolled threads.


I assumed that the threads in a turnbuckle were cut with a tap. But that one had a choice of buying studs with cut threads, formed with a die, or studs with rolled threads.
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Old 02-02-2016, 00:13   #7
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Hacking View Post
One thing you should know about is the difference between cut-thread & rolled-thread turnbuckles, & how to tell what you have. We've published a short article on this here, with pictures of crack propagation. The short answer is that you want rolled thread turnbuckles (which West Marine don't even stock) but even when you order them you don't always get them, so you should know how to tell the difference.
VERY good point! The concept is one to which I pay close attention to elsewhere, all the time. But it's one which I only rarely think about with regards to these kinds of components.
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Old 02-02-2016, 00:31   #8
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Jim View Post
Uh, if you have all the old standing rigging just duplicate what you have but use (or specify your rigger to use) open bodied turnbuckles. If you are only changing the turnbuckle bodies just get ones which your existing pin thread sizes and diameters.
Personally if the standing rigging ten years old I'd take this opportunity to replace it all. Some insurance policies require it. You might want to check with your provider. European companies are more strict than the US companies. BTW there is no economizing with a 47 footer. You gave that up when you decided to join the big boat club.
Hey Jim,
I could do that, but I'm at work offshore so I can't do that at the moment. I'll do it when I get home. I am changing the cable as well.

I'm not trying to economize, but I don't want to get 3/4 if I don't need it. I don't see the purpose of up sizing for the sake of it. I would rather spend that money on other things.

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Old 02-02-2016, 00:39   #9
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Riggingonly.com shows the difference as $52/turnbuckle. I replaced 12mm with 7/16 wire and 3/4 turnbuckles. Make sure to match the pin sizes as well. I used 3/8 dyform for the 10mm intermediates, but its really hard to find anymore.
It's still about $110 bucks there too. I need jaw to jaw so that may be the difference in what you looked at? Do you know what brand they use? I'm looking a Hayn and I can get them a little cheaper with my defender account.

I am considering dyform where the conversion is less. Thanks for the tip.

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Old 02-02-2016, 00:45   #10
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Hacking View Post
One thing you should know about is the difference between cut-thread & rolled-thread turnbuckles, & how to tell what you have. We've published a short article on this here, with pictures of crack propagation. The short answer is that you want rolled thread turnbuckles (which West Marine don't even stock) but even when you order them you don't always get them, so you should know how to tell the difference.
Thanks Jon! I'll take it from your article that Hayn is good to go and they are rolled not cut threads. Also, I am talking with John Franta too about my rigging. I'm looking at going synthetic and he recommended Hayn, Err that's all they use.

I will still look at 1x19 wire and dyform to see my options but I do like the dynice dux kit. It has its pluses and just need to watch for chafe which shouldn't be an issue. I'll need wire for headstay as I'm getting a furler,but everything(sans baby stay, leaving it be for now) else will be synthetic if I go that route.

Thanks for your article, good read. I'm still checking out your site too. (:

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Old 02-02-2016, 10:50   #11
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
Thanks Jon! I'll take it from your article that Hayn is good to go and they are rolled not cut threads. Also, I am talking with John Franta too about my rigging. I'm looking at going synthetic and he recommended Hayn, Err that's all they use.

I will still look at 1x19 wire and dyform to see my options but I do like the dynice dux kit. It has its pluses and just need to watch for chafe which shouldn't be an issue. I'll need wire for headstay as I'm getting a furler,but everything(sans baby stay, leaving it be for now) else will be synthetic if I go that route.

Thanks for your article, good read. I'm still checking out your site too.
Pretty much all turnbuckle mfgrs will have a line of cut thread turnbuckles, because they're cheaper, but the Hayn rolled thread turnbuckles have been fine.

Dynex Dux is about as strong as 1x19, but has a bit more stretch. When sizing Dux, you usually need to size for comparable stretch, which will make your rigging a bit bigger than previous, but also stronger. One catch with Dux is that it will creep if the static loads are too high. I think the rule of thumb here is to keep the static loads under 10% of Safe Working Load. We have a triple diamond rig (8 stays) which are currently 20 year old rod, & I'm considering making them Dux but I usually keep them pretty tight, so I haven't yet (despite having all the materials on board to do so).

Dyform used to be available in SAE sizes years ago, but now I think it's only available in metric sizes. It's ~30% stronger than comparable 1x19, but usually about 50% more expensive.

Thanks (to all!) for the kudos on the article (& site).
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Old 02-02-2016, 13:24   #12
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Hacking View Post
Pretty much all turnbuckle mfgrs will have a line of cut thread turnbuckles, because they're cheaper, but the Hayn rolled thread turnbuckles have been fine.

Dynex Dux is about as strong as 1x19, but has a bit more stretch. When sizing Dux, you usually need to size for comparable stretch, which will make your rigging a bit bigger than previous, but also stronger. One catch with Dux is that it will creep if the static loads are too high. I think the rule of thumb here is to keep the static loads under 10% of Safe Working Load. We have a triple diamond rig (8 stays) which are currently 20 year old rod, & I'm considering making them Dux but I usually keep them pretty tight, so I haven't yet (despite having all the materials on board to do so).

Dyform used to be available in SAE sizes years ago, but now I think it's only available in metric sizes. It's ~30% stronger than comparable 1x19, but usually about 50% more expensive.

Thanks (to all!) for the kudos on the article (& site).
Roger that on the Hayn gear.

Re the dux, I have been looking at it for some time now. I spoke with John at Miami last year about it and more so recently on the phone. We have gone over the stretch and creep factors and with my cutter rig it shouldn't be a problem. My rig doesn't need lots of high tension. But I figure with my rig I could save considerable weight aloft not going with wire.

I still have to look into the wire and dyform wire.



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Old 02-02-2016, 13:40   #13
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

Anyone else think its weird that the lowers are larger diameter than the uppers? Its usually the other way around or the inners are the same diameter as the uppers.
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Old 02-02-2016, 15:18   #14
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

Sail Redemption,

I know you didn't ask, so please forgive me for butting in. One time, we failed to replace only the baby stay. It was a different gauge wire from the rest of the rig. What happened was that that stay had oxygen-deprivation corrosion in its core, and it turned out when it broke during a gale, that the mast pumped excessively without it. Jim went aloft at sea to replace it, we were between the Societies and HI, headed back to w**k [the 4 letter word ending in "K". Now, possibly, we could have turned down then, but that wasn't what happened.

My advice is to replace the blank blank baby stay, with dyneema, also, and have done with it--don't take the risk we did. We did ours on this boat using all the old stuff, and just making the terminations with a thimble inside the eye-splice, so all you're talking is the length of the stay plus the overages for the splices--a small portion of the of the total re-rig. There are good instructions for the splices on line, too.

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Old 03-02-2016, 00:04   #15
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Re: Turnbuckle Sizing

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Anyone else think its weird that the lowers are larger diameter than the uppers? Its usually the other way around or the inners are the same diameter as the uppers.
I'm not entirely sure, it's how the boat came. And I don't recall what the other boats I have been on had. My lowers are more after than the uppers and intermediates...

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