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Old 05-04-2015, 19:51   #16
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

You want the big car. Not for the size of the sail but for the top conditions when you might be flying this sail. Imagine motor-sailing upwind in 25 knots, with 8 ft chop.

You want to allow for a temporary rig/kit before you elect the frwd and the aft locations of the track. Unless you are going for an outhaul/barber system.

I was surprised how narrow the angle is. If you have a long and wide trunk, it may become a challenge.

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Old 05-04-2015, 20:56   #17
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Thanks, and your point is well taken.

The cost difference is actually very large, since towable cars will need to be ball bearing cars -- $1000 EACH, versus about $230, so more than quadruple.

But that was not actually what was stopping me -- the new tracks will be inboard and ahead of the coachroof (the sheeting angle is actually making me aroused), and I have no idea how I would lead the control lines back. In fact, for that matter, I'm not really sure how I'm going to get the SHEET back to the winch. I need to work on all of that.
Not knowing your deck layout, I'd assumed that you'd planned to go with the old school way of sheeting for a jib like this.Which is one set of tracks inside of the shrouds, & one just outside of the shrouds. And said way of mounting refers to their fore & aft location as well. Also, typically a track is also run at/on the toe rail in this area, so that you can mount a car for a wider sheeting angle, when footing.

On most boats, said mounting location for jib tracks for the #3 (jib) is a flat section of the side decks, just inside of, & outside of the shrouds. And their respective chainplates.
So it's a location where a lot of load has (most likely) been designed for from the outset, prior to building the vessel.

With such a setup it's common to simply run two sheets to the clew on the leeward side when you're going to be on one tack for a while. Splitting the load between the 2 lines, & using this to adjust/tune one's sheeting angle. Both fore & aft, as well as side to side.
Assuming that is, that the sheeting angle needs tuning which isn't met by one track or the other, or the one on the toe rail.

Look at any non current-generation racer, or even just a Nautor-Swan (older era), of 40' or larger & you'll see this type of layout. And if I've time later, I'll generate some pictures & visual examples.

This issue is something which your sailmaker should have worked on with you long ago actually (SIC). As in when he was first measuring your boat, to lay out options so that you could select sail X, out of his 3-5 offerings. And thus, he may deserve a bit of interrogating on as to why this info wasn't discussed then, & worked out long ago.
Quite possibly followed by the appropriate level of berating, given what your new sails are costing you.

It's also why boats of size, meaning say, north of 40', commonly have a well versed BMW, to head off these kinds of SNAFU's prior to their arising.Especially on boats where the owner's new/non-versed in a lot of the engineering & design which goes into it's systems.

FYI, the sailmaker has, or should have (if he's a sailmaker of quality) ALL of the tools at his disposal, used to figure out where your new sheet leads are required to be placed. In addition to being familiar with the Vast majority of the various types of hardware options used to sheet such sails. Though he won't perhaps know the specifics of how your boat is constructed, & thus best able to handle these high loads.

However, if not, then it is/was a simple matter for him to talk to you, stating this, and to work with the appropriate parties, in order to show you the various (new sheet lead) solution options. Though this work (figuring, research/consultations, & calculations) would likely have had to have been factored into his both his sail price estimate, along with his bill.
As it's something which he HAD to have noticed when he came down to your boat, to measure it for various sail options to present to you.He did do this a couple of times, early on, right?

Also, this is likely a situation which your boat's maker has both dealt with & worked out long, long ago. Meaning how to mount leads for this, or very similar sails. So likely they'd have all of the key information on file. Or, knock on wood, should be able to figure it fairly easily. IE; query them.

If they haven't dealt with it (previously, on other boats of this model), they will have all of the key figures (numbers) & data in their computer about the boat. Up to & including her construction, & load tolerances in the areas proposed for the new leadsBest sheeting angles & solutions to achieve same, etc.
So that, given the specs on the pending sail, they should be able to print you out several options in fairly short order.
- They do have the company name & reputation to protect, since she's a high end, boat of pedigree. So they should provide you with good customer service. Albeit if the installation of this hardware gets complex, odds are good that they'll want your Visa. Fairly enough, I might add, in return for their time working up the engineering behind the/your solution options. As one doesn't just arbitrarily add 2 ton loads to a deck or coach house, even on a steel boat. So they may have to do some figuring.

Also, a decent (high end) deck hardware rep will be able to show you what your options are in terms of both layouts, as well as hardware. But again, you may be paying him a bit for his time, in addition to the hardware, & the "how" behind it's installations. Plus, again, there will be structural evaluations needing to be done, prior to making final hardware choices, & where + how to mount it.
And, if you haven't done this before, & it's a complex boat/install, you'll spend more trying to do the DIY option than to hire a pro. Unless... you're good @ math, & a decent engineer/have done this on half a dozen different boats before. As well as know how your boat's constructed in this (new jib lead) area.

Particularly given the rather large loads involved on your boat. As pulling out part of the coach roof or side decks, along with the new jib track, is no fun to say the least. Particularly when the loads are being measured in tons, & costs are in the 4-5 digit range.
Doubly so when your insurer starts asking probing questions about the topic, & or vacillating about cutting you a check for repairs (or not).

Regarding the issue of getting the sheet fairly led aft, & eventually to a winch. Usually, knock on wood, one runs the lines for the #3/Blade, back through the forward most lead car for your other headsails. And from their, either directly to a primary winch, or all the way back to a turning block, aft of the primary genoa tracks, & then to a winch.
On a "normal" boat, this works well, & routing the lines through the primary genoa cars helps to smooth out any sheet lead alignment issues.

Occasionally, one cannot run things this way due to interference issues on deck between where the #3 blocks are, & the genoa tracks further aft. In this case, you can either just run them straight aft, to a turning block, & then to a winch. Or use a cheek block (often mounted on a beveled pad) to alter the angle at which they run aft. To correct things so that they can then either be led straight to a winch, or again, back through the primary genoa leads setup & to a winch.

To create an inexpensive, towable, car, you can scare up a pair of pre-loved mainsheet traveler cars, & then simply mount a stout block onto the provided bail built into the car. Obviously, you need to make sure that both halves of this equation are rated for the load they'll see though.

Albeit, often the hardest part in creating a towable car for a heavily loaded sail like this, is in creating a strong enough towing system. As, as often as not, it'll see loads akin to what the jib cars themselves will see.
Such should be shown in a section of the Harken guide which I linked to in my other post in this thread.

If you get really stuck, LMK, & I'll try & help. Having done more than a few deck hardware layouts & modifications. Though at times, I may be away from the computer for a bit. I can't say for certain @ the moment.

Anyway, I hope that the above helps. Plus, don't freak over it, there are plenty of guys around who've done this kind of job before, & should be able to help you, on site, in real time.


PS: About my consulting fee on this. The next time you head up to the North Country, send me a bottle (or case) of some of the good local Vodka ;-)
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Old 05-04-2015, 22:04   #18
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

- BTW, it's semi-mandatory to have at least 1 spare car, if not a pair, for headsails of this type. For tuning you lead position, as alluded to before. That & the fact that on occasion, they're prone to going "bang", given the loads which they see/operate under.
As to grousing about the price, well, it's not called "yacht jewelry" for no reason.
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Old 06-04-2015, 04:57   #19
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Not knowing your deck layout, I'd assumed that you'd planned to go with the old school way of sheeting for a jib like this.Which is one set of tracks inside of the shrouds, & one just outside of the shrouds. And said way of mounting refers to their fore & aft location as well. Also, typically a track is also run at/on the toe rail in this area, so that you can mount a car for a wider sheeting angle, when footing.

On most boats, said mounting location for jib tracks for the #3 (jib) is a flat section of the side decks, just inside of, & outside of the shrouds. And their respective chainplates.
So it's a location where a lot of load has (most likely) been designed for from the outset, prior to building the vessel.

With such a setup it's common to simply run two sheets to the clew on the leeward side when you're going to be on one tack for a while. Splitting the load between the 2 lines, & using this to adjust/tune one's sheeting angle. Both fore & aft, as well as side to side.
Assuming that is, that the sheeting angle needs tuning which isn't met by one track or the other, or the one on the toe rail.

Look at any non current-generation racer, or even just a Nautor-Swan (older era), of 40' or larger & you'll see this type of layout. And if I've time later, I'll generate some pictures & visual examples.

This issue is something which your sailmaker should have worked on with you long ago actually (SIC). As in when he was first measuring your boat, to lay out options so that you could select sail X, out of his 3-5 offerings. And thus, he may deserve a bit of interrogating on as to why this info wasn't discussed then, & worked out long ago.
Quite possibly followed by the appropriate level of berating, given what your new sails are costing you.

It's also why boats of size, meaning say, north of 40', commonly have a well versed BMW, to head off these kinds of SNAFU's prior to their arising.Especially on boats where the owner's new/non-versed in a lot of the engineering & design which goes into it's systems.

FYI, the sailmaker has, or should have (if he's a sailmaker of quality) ALL of the tools at his disposal, used to figure out where your new sheet leads are required to be placed. In addition to being familiar with the Vast majority of the various types of hardware options used to sheet such sails. Though he won't perhaps know the specifics of how your boat is constructed, & thus best able to handle these high loads.

However, if not, then it is/was a simple matter for him to talk to you, stating this, and to work with the appropriate parties, in order to show you the various (new sheet lead) solution options. Though this work (figuring, research/consultations, & calculations) would likely have had to have been factored into his both his sail price estimate, along with his bill.
As it's something which he HAD to have noticed when he came down to your boat, to measure it for various sail options to present to you.He did do this a couple of times, early on, right?

Also, this is likely a situation which your boat's maker has both dealt with & worked out long, long ago. Meaning how to mount leads for this, or very similar sails. So likely they'd have all of the key information on file. Or, knock on wood, should be able to figure it fairly easily. IE; query them.

If they haven't dealt with it (previously, on other boats of this model), they will have all of the key figures (numbers) & data in their computer about the boat. Up to & including her construction, & load tolerances in the areas proposed for the new leadsBest sheeting angles & solutions to achieve same, etc.
So that, given the specs on the pending sail, they should be able to print you out several options in fairly short order.
- They do have the company name & reputation to protect, since she's a high end, boat of pedigree. So they should provide you with good customer service. Albeit if the installation of this hardware gets complex, odds are good that they'll want your Visa. Fairly enough, I might add, in return for their time working up the engineering behind the/your solution options. As one doesn't just arbitrarily add 2 ton loads to a deck or coach house, even on a steel boat. So they may have to do some figuring.

Also, a decent (high end) deck hardware rep will be able to show you what your options are in terms of both layouts, as well as hardware. But again, you may be paying him a bit for his time, in addition to the hardware, & the "how" behind it's installations. Plus, again, there will be structural evaluations needing to be done, prior to making final hardware choices, & where + how to mount it.
And, if you haven't done this before, & it's a complex boat/install, you'll spend more trying to do the DIY option than to hire a pro. Unless... you're good @ math, & a decent engineer/have done this on half a dozen different boats before. As well as know how your boat's constructed in this (new jib lead) area.

Particularly given the rather large loads involved on your boat. As pulling out part of the coach roof or side decks, along with the new jib track, is no fun to say the least. Particularly when the loads are being measured in tons, & costs are in the 4-5 digit range.
Doubly so when your insurer starts asking probing questions about the topic, & or vacillating about cutting you a check for repairs (or not).

Regarding the issue of getting the sheet fairly led aft, & eventually to a winch. Usually, knock on wood, one runs the lines for the #3/Blade, back through the forward most lead car for your other headsails. And from their, either directly to a primary winch, or all the way back to a turning block, aft of the primary genoa tracks, & then to a winch.
On a "normal" boat, this works well, & routing the lines through the primary genoa cars helps to smooth out any sheet lead alignment issues.

Occasionally, one cannot run things this way due to interference issues on deck between where the #3 blocks are, & the genoa tracks further aft. In this case, you can either just run them straight aft, to a turning block, & then to a winch. Or use a cheek block (often mounted on a beveled pad) to alter the angle at which they run aft. To correct things so that they can then either be led straight to a winch, or again, back through the primary genoa leads setup & to a winch.

To create an inexpensive, towable, car, you can scare up a pair of pre-loved mainsheet traveler cars, & then simply mount a stout block onto the provided bail built into the car. Obviously, you need to make sure that both halves of this equation are rated for the load they'll see though.

Albeit, often the hardest part in creating a towable car for a heavily loaded sail like this, is in creating a strong enough towing system. As, as often as not, it'll see loads akin to what the jib cars themselves will see.
Such should be shown in a section of the Harken guide which I linked to in my other post in this thread.

If you get really stuck, LMK, & I'll try & help. Having done more than a few deck hardware layouts & modifications. Though at times, I may be away from the computer for a bit. I can't say for certain @ the moment.

Anyway, I hope that the above helps. Plus, don't freak over it, there are plenty of guys around who've done this kind of job before, & should be able to help you, on site, in real time.


PS: About my consulting fee on this. The next time you head up to the North Country, send me a bottle (or case) of some of the good local Vodka ;-)
Thanks for taking the time to write all of this -- very useful and, for me, educational.

Concerning the structure -- I'm going to trust Lallow's on this, who are master boatbuilders, in fact the oldest boatyard in Cowes, and do all kinds of structural work on big race boats. The owner himself came over to analyze the job. They are going to put in bronze backing plates to spread the loads under the deck.

Concerning the sheeting angle -- the sailmaker spent a lot of time on this, measuring, and working it up on the computer. The sail was designed specifically for these tracks, with their travel and the specific angle in mind. I think I can trust him with this -- he is a highly reputable figure around here. He made Tom Cunliffe's sails, for example.

Concerning alternate, outboard tracks -- that's a bridge too far for me, both in terms of cost, and especially, in terms of obstructing my side decks. This sail is specifically for going upwind, and I will not be using it for work offwind unless the wind changes and I don't have enough crew to change the sail. In this case, I will simply barber haul it.

As to leading the sheets -- if I had a fair lead to the regular cars, I wouldn't have an issue. The problem is that the new tracks will be going on what is actually part of the coachroof, so not only inboard but higher than the regular tracks, and with the raised part of the coachroof (this is a raised salon boat like Oysters and Discoverys, so the coachroof has two levels) in the way of a fair lead. I am thinking that I will need to rig a snatch block to lead the sheet around the high part of the coachroof. The angle is shallow, so loads on this shouldn't be too great.

As to towing the cars -- I never tow towable cars under load anyway. To change the sheet lead position -- the thing I fiddle with the most when sailing upwind -- I always ease the sheet, when moving the lead forward, then sheet back in. You can't just leave the sheet in any case, even if there were no question of the huge loads, because you need a different amount of sheet for cars in different positions. I don't think this is really an issue, although a bit of purchase is always a good thing. If I make these cars towable, I will likewise have to rig some kind of snatch blocks -- going to be messy side decks.

That's a good idea to talk to the maker. Well, the maker no longer exists, but I will try to get an answer from the designer, Bill Dixon, whose mooring is about 50 meters from mine (his boat is Tikka, a Moody 47). That's a very good idea; thanks.
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Old 06-04-2015, 06:28   #20
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

In theory at least, it sounds as if you have most of the issues handled then. That, and or have folks in your corner there who can.And you’re welcome for the tips.

Likely you know this, but on the use of snatch blocks, or any non bolted down block with this sail. Whenever there’s any slack in the sheet, & it’s connected to the sail, said block is going to want to try & beat itself & anything nearby, to death. So plan to put down some kind of protective plate for the deck in it’s vicinity.
Be it; Treadmaster, G10, Diamond Plate (aluminum)… you get the idea. Although perhaps the wisest choice would be something protective with “padding” atop it. Like Treadmaster on top of a piece of Aluminum or G10. A piece of UHMWPE etc.
You’ll know how serious a level of protection is needed when you first take the sail out for a test in more moderate airs.

My comments about having sections of track at 2+ different widths isn’t a luxury idea.It has to do with the fact that sometimes you just wont be able to point as high as others, due to sea state, & current conditions (beyond your control).

For leading the sheets over anything where there are no sharp angles involved, & the line pressure would be low, you might be able to get away with just affixing a piece of UHMWPE there. If not there are specific rigging fittings designed to help you do this, in addition to/in lieu of cheek blocks, which I mentioned earlier on.
And, for testing your setup out, obviously you’d be better off using an older, unimportant sheet, until you’re sure that there are no serious chafe points anywhere between the sail’s clew, & your winches. Common sense, yes, but worth mentioning.

Glad to hear that you have a handle on things, more or less. You'll need to post pics at some point of the boat with the new canvas flying, when you get a chance. It'll definitely be a different look from Dacron. What did you go with again, the Darth Vader special wasn't it ;-) ?
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Old 06-04-2015, 06:44   #21
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

Great thread!

On nauta54' both rails are 1 1/4 " wide, bolts some 4" spaced, 8mm diam
Outer trail is some 20' long Harken
Inner one is for staysail of 25sqm approx, inside the rig, just 2' long!

Considerations
Possible a self-tacking solution, for your blade? A conveniency, and trail is in a foremast position, doesn't pull onto the coachroof (not intended for heavy strain, I suppose...)

My long rail gets up till the stays... i'm wondering if a two-car system may help me in opting for the indide/outside way, depending on situations
Will discuss it w sailmaker before order :-)
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Old 06-04-2015, 06:54   #22
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheThunderbird View Post
Great thread!

On nauta54' both rails are 1 1/4 " wide, bolts some 4" spaced, 8mm diam
Outer trail is some 20' long Harken
Inner one is for staysail of 25sqm approx, inside the rig, just 2' long!

Considerations
Possible a self-tacking solution, for your blade? A conveniency, and trail is in a foremast position, doesn't pull onto the coachroof (not intended for heavy strain, I suppose...) . . .
Yes, we did think about using the staysail's self-tacking track for the blade, and talked about it for a long time. Until I remembered about the inner forestay . . . . duhhhhhhhhhhhh. . . .



You have 32mm t-tracks, which is what Lallow wants me to use.

But this won't do if I go with towable cars, which would then need to be ball bearing cars.
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Old 06-04-2015, 07:12   #23
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

Instead of a track, wouldn't reinforced padeyes along with low friction rings work as fairleads in this situation?

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Old 06-04-2015, 07:23   #24
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

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Instead of a track, wouldn't reinforced padeyes along with low friction rings work as fairleads in this situation?

Matt
Sure, but such a fairlead would be fixed in place, and adjustment of the sheet lead position is the key control for the headsail. Which is why we have tracks and cars for headsail sheet leads.


Thinking through this in my imagination, I am seeing that a very high aspect sail like this will need a huge amount of leech tension, which will be led at a more acute angle. So the forces will be actually greater than on the sheet leads for the regular overlapping yankee.
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Old 06-04-2015, 07:25   #25
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Glad to hear that you have a handle on things, more or less. You'll need to post pics at some point of the boat with the new canvas flying, when you get a chance. It'll definitely be a different look from Dacron. What did you go with again, the Darth Vader special wasn't it ;-) ?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
Yes, the Darth Vader sails -- carbon fiber/vectran laminate
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Old 06-04-2015, 07:39   #26
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

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Sure, but such a fairlead would be fixed in place, and adjustment of the sheet lead position is the key control for the headsail. Which is why we have tracks and cars for headsail sheet leads.

Which is why you don't fix it in place. The rings are typically attached to Dyneema at a three to one purchase between two padeyes athwartship. Releasing a bit of dyneema on the inner moves the fairlead both up and outward.... mimicking moving your sheet to an outboard track and aft car position. Likewise, pulling the inner line in is like moving to the inner track and the car forward.

It's called floating jib.

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Old 06-04-2015, 08:10   #27
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

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Which is why you don't fix it in place. The rings are typically attached to Dyneema at a three to one purchase between two padeyes athwartship. Releasing a bit of dyneema on the inner moves the fairlead both up and outward.... mimicking moving your sheet to an outboard track and aft car position. Likewise, pulling the inner line in is like moving to the inner track and the car forward.

It's called floating jib.

Matt
How interesting. I have never seen or even heard of such a system.

Could be worth considering here since the required fore-aft travel is small. I'll ask the sailmaker about it. Thanks!

Uncivilized, have you ever dealt with such an arrangement?
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Old 06-04-2015, 08:12   #28
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

Found in the web:

"It's hard to see on that photo, but most modern race boats are switching to a floating jib car lead, which permits manipulation of the lead in three dimensions. Forward, aft. In, out. Up, down.

The lead itself is typically an Antal low-friction ring."

This looks absolutely fabulous!!!! Following KILLER advantages:

1. Much cheaper and easier to install -- two padeyes, some blocks & dyneema vs track and car.

2. Much stronger -- SWL 5 tonnes (!) or more. But caveat -- subject to having enough backing plate area. Need to discuss with Lallow's.

3. Much more flexible adjustment of sheet lead -- in three dimensions!


This looks like the business!
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Old 06-04-2015, 08:46   #29
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

More inspiration:

Anasazi Racing: antal floating jib ring

"by James Burwick

I finally busted a move and eliminated the jib tracks.
Sailing off the wind I wanted to open the leech of the head sails.
I was tired of looking at the clew hooking inboard.
Seems that the sweet spot was always right on the life-line.

The big Antal low friction rings fit the solent, trinquette and tormentina sheets. The ring has an exterior groove that holds the bungee cord. This cord holds the ring away from the deck and cabin top. It is held high on the lower shrouds with an adjustable rolling hitch. I wrap the cord end with sticky back sail repair cloth.

The system uses two pad eyes, two 2-1 purchase control lines, two rope clutches, and custom G10 Plates from C-Tech for load spreading backing pads. The lines lead direct to winches if power is needed.

First sea trial yesterday proved the system. Now I can approach the sweet spot and prevent the jib sheet from chafing the life line.

Lost: weight, holes in the deck, & chafe worries.
Gained: performance.

The addition of the two big ones makes 11 Antal rings aboard A. Girl.
Even after this many miles, I am still finding ways to make the boat cleaner.

Thanks to the countless sailors I spoke with:
JP Maquet, Garry Locke, Kevin Dibley. Michael Hennessy, Rob Windsor, Alex Vallings, Brett Burville... . .
One has to have a team to go offshore. "
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Old 06-04-2015, 08:49   #30
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Re: Tracks for Blade Jib

Carbon sails, Dyneema, soft shackles and low friction rings = Awesome!!!

The TP52 you stole the spinnaker pole most likely has a similar setup.

Matt
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