Titanium Sails, the Holy Grail of Sail Material ?

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Being as this is a cruising forum I would have to say the holy grail of cruising sails is solar film as light, durable, cheap and sew able as polyester. Any time the sails are up you are charging you batteries.


A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground you would never try to refloat it.

Some of the flexible solar panels are getting to that point. Probably could attach them to a fisherman sail(assuming a ketch) and fly them. Heck, you probably could just raise a group of them connected together on a spare halyard. Probably would not affect speed but would provide charge while sailing.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by TJ D

I have to second Jim's comment.

We have been dacron only for all of our working sails until we bought the 55 footer and the new laminate sails at the same time. (with a fully battened, very roachy main).

For me, I don't have a bit of interest in ditching these for any kind of dacron when it comes time to replace. If anything, we'll go with a square-top, more race oriented sail as long as UV and chafe concerns are addressed by whatever material is used in place of the current taffeta.

They hold their shape for the life of the sail, through any wind range.

Sure, they're a little stiff, but we (two people) still handle an 880 square foot main with no problems. Battens, stiff cloth and all. I have found no operational difficulties whatsoever. We had these sails built to a very heavy specification just for longevity, so they are probably as stiff as anything that we're likely to encounter on the next set.

Turns out that these new materials are actually pretty damn good. And yes, we are 'long distance cruisers' too.

TJ

I was trying to ignore the 'advertising bent' of this article, but once again it was just an article in SEAhorse that I quoted at the opening posting, and not a straight advertising piece.

What I am looking for is the most up to date sail material that is light weight, yet able to hold it shape thru big wind ranges, and for a good amount of time. My all furling rig design (single-masted ketch) wants to employ only 3 permanent sails that can handle heavier winds ( in some cases in a partially furled configuration), yet also perform in light airs. The furling aspect should be a bit easier on the longevity of these newer generation laminates. And of course we all look at the cost benefits of longer lasting sails.

So it might well be a consideration to pay a bit higher price for the initial set of sails if they are going to be that more versatile and longer lasting.

...from another forum

Originally Posted by brian eiland

The points I was trying to make for my aft-mast rig with its big genoa is that I was trying to meet a big variety of conditions with a limited sail inventory (my 3 sails are the only ones I have onboard, and are set up to be reduced in size by roller furling, not hoisted or replaced by alternatives).

As such I wanted a good size genoa sail for those often encounter 5-15 knot winds that we would really like to sail in rather than turning on the engine(s). This size sail, in those conditions, should be relatively easy to handle, ...(and when out cruising I would NOT be looking at getting into tacking duals). I was seeking to get the best from this genoa sail by giving it the best help from the 'cutter jib' (mainstaysail as I refer to it), and providing for its best dumping traits as described by Tom.

I'm also quite convinced that modern sail materials such as the tape-drives or these Titanium sails would allow for a very light weight sail that would maintain their shape even in higher wind conditions. These materials should also allow for sailing under a partially furled sail. As I have said before I believe a hefty size ROUND furling 'tube' (headstay) should utilized to negate some difficulties of stalling the sail due to a 'too-sharp' leading edge to the headsails. Combine this type of headstay foil with a modern 'shaped foam insert' in the leading edge, and this sail should set pretty well in the roller-reefed condition. It would be nice to be able to utilize this reef-able genoa up to the 30 knot range.

For storm conditions that we see coming we slip another sail over that furling genoa:
Storm Sail Configurations

[reed1v]

BEILAND, you say you have a single masted ketch? Never knew one existed.

[beiland]

Sail Propulsion - Revisiting a Mast-Aft Sailing Rig

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by beiland

Sail Propulsion - Revisiting a Mast-Aft Sailing Rig

OH, a wish bone rig. Not sure "ketch" is the right name for such a rig. More like a fisherman rig. Surprised such a rig would not interfere with the air flows over the mainsail. Seems like both sails would have to be designed to work together.

[Rorzech]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Being as this is a cruising forum I would have to say the holy grail of cruising sails is solar film as light, durable, cheap and sew able as polyester. Any time the sails are up you are charging you batteries.


A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground you would never try to refloat it.

That's really cool. Where do they sell these sails?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Rorzech

That's really cool. Where do they sell these sails?

Same place you can buy a holy grail.

[TJ D]

Stu, that's a good one.

There was actually an article in Sail or Cruising World a year or two ago about a prototype of solar panels in sails that was in service.

Maybe 10 years or so, they'll be a reality.

I don't think that it's really an effective way to go, however. I would prefer my solar array to charge ALL the time, not just when sailing.

They probably have a home on racing boats, but not really cruiser friendly IMO.

TJ

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by beiland

I was trying to ignore the 'advertising bent' of this article, but once again it was just an article in SEAhorse that I quoted at the opening posting, and not a straight advertising piece.

What I am looking for is the most up to date sail material that is light weight, yet able to hold it shape thru big wind ranges, and for a good amount of time. My all furling rig design (single-masted ketch) wants to employ only 3 permanent sails that can handle heavier winds ( in some cases in a partially furled configuration), yet also perform in light airs. The furling aspect should be a bit easier on the longevity of these newer generation laminates. And of course we all look at the cost benefits of longer lasting sails.

So it might well be a consideration to pay a bit higher price for the initial set of sails if they are going to be that more versatile and longer lasting.

...from another forum

Right now probably the best option with a track record is 3di and cuben. The 3di have proven their durability to the point that VOR boats have made the choice to get rid of their second main sail and add another headsail.

The titanium is too new to the market to have any idea about, but it sounds a lot like the 3di technology. I don't follow sail material all that closely, but to me this sounds like catching up not breaking new ground.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by reed1v

OH, a wish bone rig. Not sure "ketch" is the right name for such a rig. More like a fisherman rig. Surprised such a rig would not interfere with the air flows over the mainsail. Seems like both sails would have to be designed to work together.

First off I think you are referring to that aft sail as a 'mainsail'. It is not one of my 'main sails'. It is an addition to the original rig design of 2 headsails, just as was a mizzen sail added to make a ketch or yawl. I refer to it as a mizzen, and I would plan to utilize just as a normal mizzen would normally be used.

I chose to utilize a wishbone boom for several reasons.
1) it allows for roller furling of that mizzen
2) gives much better head room clearance for anyone operating the vessel from that top deck.
3) it can be rotated up and stored to make room for any fishing cockpit activities.
cockpit.jpg Views: 91 Size: 54.7 KB ID: 127671" style="margin: 2px" />


My 'main sail' is my central sail. It just happens to be a roller furling staysail. For that reason I named it my 'mainstaysail'. Just as with the mainsail on a conventional rig it helps throw air to the genoa making that genoa both more productive and slightly higher pointing.
Aftmast rigs??? - Boat Design Forums

[beiland]

This subject thread got deleted for a little while until we could work out the text of the original posting. That has been done, and now I am hoping we will get more imput by sailors with experiences with these 'laminate sails' for longer term cruising.

ie, how about laminate sails in a roller furling/reefing situations??

[beiland]

Over the years there has been many naysayers expressing reservations about roller REEFING sails.

I just ran across a few little discussions/references to roller furling genoas utilizing more modern sail materials.
News — UK Sailmakers

Off the wind, the boat went well with the genoa rolled to half-size and the main double reefed.

Nick Southward and UK Sailmakers' Barry Hayes have become the first team to race the 590-mile Hong Kong to Manilla race double-handed, and they did it on a 36-foot J/109 named WHISKEY JACK. Most of the race for WHISKEY JACK was sailed in 30 knots of wind -- with 40-45 knots for almost the whole second day of race. Sailing against fully-crewed teams, the duo finished third in IRC 2. They broke and fixed a lot of gear, but their sails were not on the "to repair" list

Passagemaker Titanium - Carbon Single-sided Taffeta


Titanium Beidseitig Taffeta - Cruising Genua