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Old 14-08-2014, 13:22   #16
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
I'm wondering if others have a better solution to the problem other than a "tug and pull" approach? Thanks for the reply.
Steering on a deep broad reach is an easy solution. The apparent wind will be much lower and if you put the genoa in the wind shadow of the main the flogging will be reduced further.
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Old 14-08-2014, 14:20   #17
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
John,
It is also possible that the tension I create on the jib sheet while furling may also be an issue. I have done this in the past in these conditions to prevent unnecessary and uncontrollable flogging of the headsail and wildly undulating jib sheets
There's part of your problem. You're fighting against not only pressure on the sail but a force vector on the sheets opposite the direction the furler is working.

Just head downwind to furl, let out the working genoa sheet until the clew is a few feet aft of the stay, and furling will be exponentially easier right up to the finish. Less apparent wind, less pressure on the sail, sail is full so no sail flogging, no whipping sheets.

I suspect that your binding on the drum is the result of the line digging into the existing wraps and binding based on your stated technique. Making it easier to furl by heading off the wind should solve that issue as well since it will take much less force on the line to furl.
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Old 14-08-2014, 17:56   #18
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

Some of the problem might be the way you unroll the sail, I try to keep some tension on furling line as I unroll to wrap the line onto the drum tightly. This reduces the chance of the line digging into the wraps underneith and jambing. +1 to the running off, and all the other suggestions.

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Old 14-08-2014, 18:10   #19
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

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Some of the problem might be the way you unroll the sail, I try to keep some tension on furling line as I unroll to wrap the line onto the drum tightly. This reduces the chance of the line digging into the wraps underneith and jambing. +1 to the running off, and all the other suggestions.

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That's why Harken spec'd the ratchet block with their furlers. Keeps the sail from unfurling too fast.

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Old 14-08-2014, 18:41   #20
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

A good diagnostic check for furlers is to try to furl it with a bit of wood used as a spanner. If it rolls easily its the bottom bearings or the rope side. If its still hard its probably higher up. I've rolled up a 62 footers headsail like this when the bottom bearings went. Worked well in up to 20 knots.
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Old 14-08-2014, 20:03   #21
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

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Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy View Post
if it's really blowing (like steadily past 30-35 knots), I would argue removing the furling sail from the foil is the way to go.
I honestly cannot imagine dropping the sail out of the foil, loose on the foredeck, in 30 - 35 knots. Maybe with 2 or 3 really fit guys up there to control the sail, but usually it's just me.
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Old 14-08-2014, 20:09   #22
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

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I honestly cannot imagine dropping the sail out of the foil, loose on the foredeck, in 30 - 35 knots. Maybe with 2 or 3 really fit guys up there to control the sail, but usually it's just me.
I agree, trying to drop it at sea in a gale is a recipe for big problems and sail damage. Unless you have lots of crew. Or a small sail on the furler. A well stowed tight furler is not an issue unless you need to bash off a lee shore or are at anchor. In fact the furled sail may be an asset, being a good storm sail forward if running off, balancing the windage of all the crap we have added aft.
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Old 14-08-2014, 21:33   #23
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

Just wrap the furling line around your electric capstan and press the button. Best $400 I ever spent.

http://www.jamesnilsson.com/files/docs/c500.pdf
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Old 14-08-2014, 21:58   #24
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Just wrap the furling line around your electric capstan and press the button. Best $400 I ever spent.

http://www.jamesnilsson.com/files/docs/c500.pdf
Often thought one of them down aft could be handy on a bigger boat. Lead the main halyard to it, the drogue line plus furler line. Although its a good way to break something if you aren't careful..
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Old 14-08-2014, 22:53   #25
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
My dear man, if you have any sheet tension when you are trying to furl in any sort of a blow you will need arms like a gorilla!!
This is why you hear of people using a winch to furl a sail.
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Old 14-08-2014, 23:46   #26
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

Part A: You need to check the upper end of the install of your furler. Specifically, is your halyard setup properly so that it doesn't cause binding on the upper end of the unit. This portion's fairly critical, as the more unfair the lead, the worse the binding problem will get as the wind/load increases.

Also, Spectra is your friend. Meaning that it's nice & slippery. So that using it, uncovered as the upper several feet of your halyard, or using a slip on & stitch on spectra cover on the halyard will help to reduce friction up top.
Annapolis Performance Sailing (APS) - Line by Material <- Scroll down to where it says "Cover Only" and you'll find a plethora of choices. And or, work with your local rigger, if you're not a DIY guy when it comes time to install it.

NOTE: I'd strongly suggest painting all lines in wear prone areas with MaxiJacket, & or it's new & improved big brother, MaxiJacket HP
APS - Yale Maxi Jacket And yeah, color code them!
Yale Cordage "MaxiJacket" Search - Search Results | Yale Cordage

As to spectra (and other high modulus halyards), yeah, the price is, or rather SEEMS step at the outset, but their lifespan WAY makes up for their price, particularly given that materials like Spectra/Dyneema are dang near immune to UV. And also have FAR better chafe resistance than most other cordage choices out there.

On the bottom end, meaning the line which you're using on your furling drum, I'd again recommend using a Spectra cored line. However, strip the cover off of the front 20' or so, & taper the cover into the core. Lock stitching it in place.
Again, visit your rigger if you've any questions on this one, as in how to do it properly.
- I'm saying Spectra again, as it's so darn slick, literally, that you really have to work in order to get it stuck on a drum. And if you like, you can even get rigging lines which are a blend of spectra & other fibers, both in their covers, as well as their cores. Giving you some of both the perks, & cons of exotic & standard lines.

When it comes to furling, as mentioned by many others, you DO want a tight sail wrap around the foil. Just don't use so much tension on the sheet when you're furling, that you're breaking out in a sweat from winching in the furling line.
And furling's like reefing. When you start to wonder if... then it's time to reduce sail. AKA, wind up the genoa, & set your Solent (see my other post on Solent stays), a dang handy sail to have, & easy to setup most any vessel for.

If you have to drop your genoa when it's blowing, and you SHOULD be well practiced at this (SIC). There are options, in addition to blanketing it behind the main, etc.
You can install/have installed, a series of small grommets 4" or so back from the luff, about every 2.5'-3', extending in a line from tack to head. And through these grommets, you run a line (again, a Spectra blend's recommended - for less chafe on the sail) from top to bottom. So that as the person controlling the halyard is lowering the sail, you have a way to control the luff, despite it's not being hanked on.

Some folks will go so far as to tie off the bottom end of this "sash cord" to a cleat at the bow, so that they needn't worry about losing the sail over the side at it's luff end. And in addition to the initial cleating of the sash cord, they'd tie it off to the cleat every 8'-10' or so of sail lowered, to keep things in position when they move slightly aft in order to secure the body of the sail with sail ties, as the sail comes down at a controlled rate.
- When you're done, the sail's all nicely wrapped in gasgets, & is still attached to the boat by; it's sheets, the tack, & possibly/optionally the gasgets, & luff sash cord (which you can use the now loose (bottom) end to further secure, or tie up the head/luff & body of the sail.

It sounds complicated, & to some degree it is, but if you can't master taking down your genoa when it's windy, sans sash cord, it's a valid & viable (old) technique.

Also, you'll need to find the right spot(s) on the foredeck to park your heiney, & have a spot to brace your feet, so that you're locked in place, sans hanging on. Allowing you both hands to pull down & control the sail. That, & be able to move fore & aft a bit with minimal hanging on, still giving you both hands for the sail, to tie it up/lash it down in different places.

Ah, and one other important thing. When you're going to drop a jenny that's in a foil when it's windy. Unless you're used to doing it, wisdom would dictate keeping the sheets fairly taut, so that the sail has less latitude to thrash around.

Probably the best way to learn how to control unruly headsails when it's windy, is to do some racing, on a boat your size, & then on one a step or three larger.
You'll have built in coaching, as well as experienced assistants. And be working under stress - racers tend to carry more sail than cruisers, & or is always prudent. And, when rounding marks (changing sail types) there's the pressure of time, LOTS of loose lines & sails, plus 50 screaming voices. Your boat, & on those nearby at the same time.
Yeah, it sucks a little at first, but you'll learn. That, & if you start racing on say the Wednesday Night Beer Can Series, the pressure level's pretty low. And if you ask, odds are they'll coach you through learning all kinds of neat manuvers & tricks of the trade.

PS: Someone earlier mentioned the use of ratchet blocks on the furling line. Such ain't a bad option, & in fact, you can use a couple of them... say one near the bow, & one back aft, near the cockpit. And switch the ratcheting feature on & off as needed for conditions. Like say, both of them on in high winds, or just one switched on in moderate winds, etc.
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Old 15-08-2014, 00:42   #27
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

you should check your forestay tension. If furling requires a lot of effort - this is frequently the cause.

a loose forestay will also make it harder to set the sail properly.

A quick way to check this is to tighten your backstay hard up as tight as you would ever set it. Then go to the bows, grab the furled sail and shake it. Put a little weight into the shaking. If it is moving more than a little bit - you need to tighten up your forestay
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Old 15-08-2014, 03:28   #28
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

I don't see how a spectra halyard helps. The sail is up and the halyard isn't moving unless the you're getting a halyard wrap while furling/unfurling. Most furlers have you deliberately put somewhat of a poor lead to prevent halyard wrap, going as far as installing a fairlead to put a slight angle of the halyard away from the swivel.

The only time I've had a problem with my line on the furler drum is when a person pulled out the sail before I was ready and there was zero tension on the furler line. Any tension at all, the recommended ratchet block that Harken recommends doesn't pull very hard, or a wrap around a winch has always been enough to not have a tangle or bury problem. If you like spectra and want to use it, go for it. I don't see that it is going to make much if any difference on solving these two problems.



Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Part A: You need to check the upper end of the install of your furler. Specifically, is your halyard setup properly so that it doesn't cause binding on the upper end of the unit. This portion's fairly critical, as the more unfair the lead, the worse the binding problem will get as the wind/load increases.

Also, Spectra is your friend. Meaning that it's nice & slippery. So that using it, uncovered as the upper several feet of your halyard, or using a slip on & stitch on spectra cover on the halyard will help to reduce friction up top.
Annapolis Performance Sailing (APS) - Line by Material <- Scroll down to where it says "Cover Only" and you'll find a plethora of choices. And or, work with your local rigger, if you're not a DIY guy when it comes time to install it.

NOTE: I'd strongly suggest painting all lines in wear prone areas with MaxiJacket, & or it's new & improved big brother, MaxiJacket HP
APS - Yale Maxi Jacket And yeah, color code them!
Yale Cordage "MaxiJacket" Search - Search Results | Yale Cordage

As to spectra (and other high modulus halyards), yeah, the price is, or rather SEEMS step at the outset, but their lifespan WAY makes up for their price, particularly given that materials like Spectra/Dyneema are dang near immune to UV. And also have FAR better chafe resistance than most other cordage choices out there.

On the bottom end, meaning the line which you're using on your furling drum, I'd again recommend using a Spectra cored line. However, strip the cover off of the front 20' or so, & taper the cover into the core. Lock stitching it in place.
Again, visit your rigger if you've any questions on this one, as in how to do it properly.
- I'm saying Spectra again, as it's so darn slick, literally, that you really have to work in order to get it stuck on a drum. And if you like, you can even get rigging lines which are a blend of spectra & other fibers, both in their covers, as well as their cores. Giving you some of both the perks, & cons of exotic & standard lines.

When it comes to furling, as mentioned by many others, you DO want a tight sail wrap around the foil. Just don't use so much tension on the sheet when you're furling, that you're breaking out in a sweat from winching in the furling line.
And furling's like reefing. When you start to wonder if... then it's time to reduce sail. AKA, wind up the genoa, & set your Solent (see my other post on Solent stays), a dang handy sail to have, & easy to setup most any vessel for.

If you have to drop your genoa when it's blowing, and you SHOULD be well practiced at this (SIC). There are options, in addition to blanketing it behind the main, etc.
You can install/have installed, a series of small grommets 4" or so back from the luff, about every 2.5'-3', extending in a line from tack to head. And through these grommets, you run a line (again, a Spectra blend's recommended - for less chafe on the sail) from top to bottom. So that as the person controlling the halyard is lowering the sail, you have a way to control the luff, despite it's not being hanked on.

Some folks will go so far as to tie off the bottom end of this "sash cord" to a cleat at the bow, so that they needn't worry about losing the sail over the side at it's luff end. And in addition to the initial cleating of the sash cord, they'd tie it off to the cleat every 8'-10' or so of sail lowered, to keep things in position when they move slightly aft in order to secure the body of the sail with sail ties, as the sail comes down at a controlled rate.
- When you're done, the sail's all nicely wrapped in gasgets, & is still attached to the boat by; it's sheets, the tack, & possibly/optionally the gasgets, & luff sash cord (which you can use the now loose (bottom) end to further secure, or tie up the head/luff & body of the sail.

It sounds complicated, & to some degree it is, but if you can't master taking down your genoa when it's windy, sans sash cord, it's a valid & viable (old) technique.

Also, you'll need to find the right spot(s) on the foredeck to park your heiney, & have a spot to brace your feet, so that you're locked in place, sans hanging on. Allowing you both hands to pull down & control the sail. That, & be able to move fore & aft a bit with minimal hanging on, still giving you both hands for the sail, to tie it up/lash it down in different places.

Ah, and one other important thing. When you're going to drop a jenny that's in a foil when it's windy. Unless you're used to doing it, wisdom would dictate keeping the sheets fairly taut, so that the sail has less latitude to thrash around.

Probably the best way to learn how to control unruly headsails when it's windy, is to do some racing, on a boat your size, & then on one a step or three larger.
You'll have built in coaching, as well as experienced assistants. And be working under stress - racers tend to carry more sail than cruisers, & or is always prudent. And, when rounding marks (changing sail types) there's the pressure of time, LOTS of loose lines & sails, plus 50 screaming voices. Your boat, & on those nearby at the same time.
Yeah, it sucks a little at first, but you'll learn. That, & if you start racing on say the Wednesday Night Beer Can Series, the pressure level's pretty low. And if you ask, odds are they'll coach you through learning all kinds of neat manuvers & tricks of the trade.

PS: Someone earlier mentioned the use of ratchet blocks on the furling line. Such ain't a bad option, & in fact, you can use a couple of them... say one near the bow, & one back aft, near the cockpit. And switch the ratcheting feature on & off as needed for conditions. Like say, both of them on in high winds, or just one switched on in moderate winds, etc.
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Old 15-08-2014, 04:55   #29
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
Vasco,
I have a Harken furler that was rebuilt last year and works well in most conditions. However, when the wind is (20 plus), the furler occasionally binds and I have to release the furling sheet and rewrap. In regards to CalJohn's advice to run downwind using the main as a wind shield, the cupping effect created on the 130 genoa coupled with the strength of the wind makes it more difficult to furl on my boat. The only technique I have found to work acceptably in strong conditions is to take in small bits ,rather than one contiunous pull, with slight tension applied to the leeward jib sheet. This difficulty, as mentioned before, is exacerbated in lumpy conditions since the foil, although under proper tension, also moves in conjuction with wind and seas. Make sense?
I think you need to check your furler, it should not bind.

*Make absolutely sure the line is entering the drum correctly and not building height and binding on the cage.

*Make sure when letting the sail out that you always leave some tension on the furler line so it stays snugly packed on the drum. Let it out loose, as many tend to do, and it will dive through the softly coiled line on the drum, at high loads, and can bind..

*Make sure you have adequate head stay tension

*Make sure your halyard is not tight-rope taught.

*Make sure your fairleads back to the cockpit are low friction, preferably bearing blocks.

*Use a ratcheting turning block at the cockpit end if you can, I use a Harken block. This allows you to take a short pause if needed without intense load on your hands. Aim for as close to 180 degrees of wrap as you can, if you pause.

*Make sure you are not getting halyard wrap.



I also have a Harken and do not experience these issues. In high winds I simply let out the head sail, turn almost down wind and crank her in quickly. There is but a few seconds of flogging....
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Old 16-08-2014, 03:56   #30
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Re: Tight Wraps/Big Winds

The Spectra halyard is specifically so that, if your halyard wants to start to wrap, Spectra is more slippery than most other cordage. And that trait may be enough to help with some of the problem.
But yes, such would occur pretty much only if the lead from the halyard's exit/restraint point on the mast is improper in the 1st place.

Albeit, again, Spectra will chafe less on most halyard restraint collars which come with a lot of furlers, than will other types of cordage. And if you know of one that's significantly better, please tell me.
Plus, when the Spectra gets a bit worn in that area, it's simple to chop off a foot of it, & toss in a new luggage tag splice for the halyard shackle. Where as splicing used double braid that's been highly loaded is a beast, even for pros. A comment which comes straight out of the mouth of Brion Toss (a personal friend).
It's not uncommon for he & his crew to turn down said jobs on such.

As to my answer specifying Spectra on the furling drum:
1) The OP specified he was getting his line stuck there, ergo, my tossing out one possible, simple, solution for such.
2) One loses almost no strength by stripping a Spectra cored line, but gains Volumes of space on a drum when doing so. And it never hurts to have room for half a dozen extra wraps on your furler's bottom end.
Though again, this is just one of the possible solutions to the problem, there are many. Albeit in my book KISS usually wins. That, and a LOT of people will run say a piece of 3/8" double braid Dacron as their furling line. And unthinkingly, use say 1/2" or bigger for sheets. Where as, it's pretty much mandatory to have one's furling line be as strong as your sheets.

Why, you ask? Well, how's the load on the furling line any less than that on the jib sheet when you're sailing with the jib rolled up 1/3 of the way? Well, okay, unless you happen to have one of the trick, new furlers which can be locked in place at deck level.
The answer to my question is... It ain't, and there aren't many furler's I've seen with the room to use 1/2" line on their drums, unless we're talking about a BIG boat, & proportionally huge furler.
So if you use a piece of 3/8" Warpspeed as your furling line, going with standard 5/8" double braid for sheets pretty much keeps things in balance.

Though again, the best solution to this problem's not solved via a wallet, or technology, but rather technique. I can change out any headsail which you can name on a 50'+er, hard on the wind or off of it, solo, almost as quick as I can on a 30'er.
And when I say solo, that means just me & the auto-pilot on deck.
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