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Old 11-02-2016, 06:49   #76
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
I have zspars SLR. This is the standard setup for the first two reefs on their booms. The third reef is exactly the same on the other side
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O dear. I thought you said only ONE line I count 2. A third would add 3.

HappY HoPPy MonkEy
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Old 11-02-2016, 06:50   #77
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
I've looked at the tri-sail...to be honest if it was that bad I'd be hove to on 3rd reef drinking coffee and reading a book
EXACTLY. Dump the try. Beef up the Main oz. and put a third reef
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Old 11-02-2016, 09:46   #78
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
O dear. I thought you said only ONE line I count 2. A third would add 3.

HappY HoPPy MonkEy
One line per reef, not 1 line for 3 reefs
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Old 11-02-2016, 10:55   #79
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
One line per reef, not 1 line for 3 reefs
I will avoid buying used boat from you. You r a sneaky broker!

QUOTE!
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I have single line reefing from the cockpit for all 3 reefs

I use all three often enough to know they all work.
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Old 11-02-2016, 11:03   #80
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
Fair enough. So why make pronouncements when you do not know? A cutter rig does not relieve one of having a mainsail up. Now in a ketch or yawl, you can go jib and jigger, which actually is more stable. A small staysail and a reefed mizzen(yes you can put reef points into mizzens) will take you through really high winds. Was Sir Francis's favorite combination going through the roaring forties and furious fifties.
Uh, not to be too particular, but I think it was Thunderbird who made the comments, not Alberg... in any case I know my boat sails along quite well with just the jib up in a good stiff breeze, I got six knots a while back coming home on a reach. I could have had 7 knots with the main up but 6 was enough and easy.

Oh and Olin Stephens too favored the reefed mizzen and staysail combo...
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Old 11-02-2016, 12:22   #81
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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Uh, not to be too particular, but I think it was Thunderbird who made the comments, not Alberg... in any case I know my boat sails along quite well with just the jib up in a good stiff breeze, I got six knots a while back coming home on a reach. I could have had 7 knots with the main up but 6 was enough and easy.

Oh and Olin Stephens too favored the reefed mizzen and staysail combo...
Oh, lose track of who made what comment. Sure in normal conditions one can sail well with just a jib up(pointing may be iffy). Under those conditions a third reef point would be irrelevant. In fact running or broad reaching one might actually go faster with just the jib rather than jib and main. In a storm, if you just want to go downhill, then a little jib will do it. The jib and mizzen will give you more options should you wish to maneuver through the seas.

BTW, we never had an issue with surfing down seas and burying our bow. Guess it depends on the boat in question. With a heavy cruiser, seems like we always lost speed as we got into the trough. Some of the rides pegged the knotmeter at over 12. For a fat ws43, that was fast.
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Old 11-02-2016, 13:22   #82
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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BTW, we never had an issue with surfing down seas and burying our bow. Guess it depends on the boat in question. With a heavy cruiser, seems like we always lost speed as we got into the trough. Some of the rides pegged the knotmeter at over 12. For a fat ws43, that was fast.
12 kts.. you must have been plowing a huge furrow with her!
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Old 11-02-2016, 13:45   #83
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

Interesting, despite that advantages of a trysail, I don't recall either Jon Saunders or Bernard Motessier using trysails on their non stop circumnavigations. They used deep reefs and strong mainsails.

A strong trysail is very important on a racing boat with a fragile mainsail, and critical in the old days of canvas sails. These days I'm comfortable with a trysail reef instead on a proper cruising main.
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Old 11-02-2016, 14:22   #84
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

To the poster with the 27 foot boat in Colorado:

You may be just fine for lake sailing with your one deep reef. This discussion of the 3rd reef is mainly based on stiff coastal and open ocean conditions, and more relevant as the overall size of the boats increases.
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Old 11-02-2016, 15:19   #85
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
OK, since we're onto trysail, and have expertise like Ann and Jim here (edit: and Phil/Boatman), let me ask about rigging and using one.

My Rafiki came with a trysail track, but I have no sail (yet). I've got a big, heavy boom: 18' long, and g-d knows how heavy -- I can't lift it myself. It overhangs most of the cockpit. I'd have to lash it to one side if I rigged a trysail, and this would make access to that side of the boat awkward, to put it mildly.

I've shied away from a trysail in favour of a 3rd reef. I know they're not identical, but since I can't really get my head around how to manage our large boom, I've considered the 3rd reef a better, more practical option.

... but perhaps I'm wrong (like I am on so many things ).

Would you recommend I consider a trysail, given that we are headed out the St. Lawrence this year. I don't know about bigger blue water at this point. It's possible, but who knows... I do know NFLD is the plan right now, and likely we'll linger there, maybe heading up the Labrador coast some way.
Hi Mike,

On our last boat (a sloop) I only ever rigged the tri-sail once in real use, and that was when we were expecting a few days of high winds during an open ocean passage to the Caribean (hurricane Olga 2001). I did use the storm jib more frequently.

You mentioned Ketch in a previous post. Is your current boat a ketch ?
If so, do you have a reef in your mizzen as well ?

I am actually preparing to do the same route as you this summer on our new boat, a ketch with small mizzen. We plan to meander down the St.Lawrence, and see a bit of the east coast, ending up in Halifax by fall then on to the Caribbean.

I don't have a tri-sail on this boat. I had my new main made with two deep reefs, so the second is the same as you might expect a third to be. We also have a reef in our mizzen that makes it match our hanked on stay-sail. All the sails are fairly heavy cloth.

In my opinion you don't need a tri-sail for this trip. You have lots of options with your ketch(?). Also, motoring is a valid storm tactic, especially on this trip where you will be docking most nights and able to refuel.

Perhaps we will cross paths along the way.

Cheers,
JM.
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Old 11-02-2016, 15:34   #86
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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12 kts.. you must have been plowing a huge furrow with her!
Actually, the boat lifts up and literally surfs down the waves(30-40 footers). Leaves little rooster tails. Neat except we get scared stiff of moving the helm even a tiny bit. Essentially, the boat is falling as much as sailing. Often wondered if one could continually surf the same roller onwards for miles. Probably a J boat or some ultra lights might get close to that. But, no, the tub does not seem to move much water when it slides down a big wave.
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Old 11-02-2016, 16:25   #87
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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Actually, the boat lifts up and literally surfs down the waves(30-40 footers). Leaves little rooster tails. Neat except we get scared stiff of moving the helm even a tiny bit. Essentially, the boat is falling as much as sailing. Often wondered if one could continually surf the same roller onwards for miles. Probably a J boat or some ultra lights might get close to that. But, no, the tub does not seem to move much water when it slides down a big wave.
I'd love to see that! You did say a Westsail 43 right? Sounds like fun. I had a Downeast 38 out in some steep seas (Not 30-40' though!) and 30 knots one day and I was surprised how it would get up and go, but I wouldn't call it lifting up and surfing.
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Old 11-02-2016, 19:19   #88
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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Originally Posted by Alberg 34 View Post
I'm still quite new to CF
I am considering whether or not to install a third reef. I have only used the first reef in 30-35kn going up Lake Erie. I am planning to sail on the ocean via the St Lawrence this spring. Looking for advice on if, a third reef is required boat is an Alberg 34 sloop.
I raced a 37 foot Heritage one-ton (morgan). We had reefing cringles & blocks for the 3rd reef and used it only a couple times in 20 years of racing. Once in the Chicago-Mac in 1981 with 70 knot winds. Glad to have it. Better to have it and not use it. We only ran the jiffy lines on the first two reefs until the 3rd was needed. - Swap the first to the 3rd position so only two sets of lines needed.
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Old 11-02-2016, 19:40   #89
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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I'd love to see that! You did say a Westsail 43 right? Sounds like fun. I had a Downeast 38 out in some steep seas (Not 30-40' though!) and 30 knots one day and I was surprised how it would get up and go, but I wouldn't call it lifting up and surfing.
Yes, we call our WetSnail our tub. Great cruiser. Going towards the Cape of Good Hope hit some really impressive seas. We think they were 40 footers. Could have been more. Boat often was a good 90 degrees off the horizontal going down their fronts. They were really long waves. We guessed the length at about half mile or more. Big mothers. Hit the same situation but in miniature going through the Alenuihaha channel heading for Lahaina in a storm. Get enough vertical lift and off you will go in almost any sailboat. The North Sea also has some impressive seas but they are wild and "choppy", thus more dangerous. The Downeast 38 is a great cruising boat. Kind of an updated version of the old CT41s.
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Old 11-02-2016, 19:55   #90
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Re: Third reef is it really needed

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Boat often was a good 90 degrees off the horizontal going down their fronts.
This,besides being pretty unlikely, is at odds with the reported half mile wavelength.

Jim
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