Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

[CruisingCouple]

Originally Posted by boatman61

There's only one for the furler.. and that usually is run along the toe rail... if you mean the sheets... that's easy.. tension them after you've furled..
Furlers rock..

LOL! Thanks boatman - I was just poking fun like celest was

[boatman61]

Durnfool am I...
Ya got me..

[ctl411]

The headsail on the 37 legend is fractional and the j is only 13.5 foot. Not such a big sail to take down. That said, I like my roller furling headsail. Hank on for my boomed staysails.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by RainDog

The insinuation that if you opt not to use a furler it is a patently irrational choice driven by notions of "purity" is absurd. Plenty of people chose to stick with hank on sails for very good reasons. There are also good reasons to switch to a furler. Neither choice is mandated by logic as you insinuate. You list some good reasons to consider a furler, especially on a boat your size, but there are plenty of people who have done many sail changes in heavy weather that still opt for hank on sails for perfectly sound reasons.

Well, I'm sorry that you found my references to "purity" to be absurd. I was responding to CC's post where "purity" was indeed mentioned:

"Yes, people can make fun of this if they want. We never went to any sailing school or anything. We were taught how to sail by the original owner of our first boat, who had bought it new and had been sailing for 47 years. He taught us how to properly flake, roll and bag a sail so it doesn't get wrinkles in it. And taught us that if a sail is hoisted with wrinkles in it it wasn't put away right.

Maybe more of that "purist" stuff. I don't know. But it was how we were taught to do it."

As I understand it, CC was looking for comments re the change back from furler to hanks, so I made some, based on my experiences, and my (unconfirmed at the time) estimate of CC's experiences. Don't think that I "insinuated" anything much, but do think that logic should be part of such choices. If not logic, then what should be used? Tradition? Macho? Fear of gear failure?

A later CC post suggests that by careful selection of sailing conditions the need to do heavy weather sail changes can be avoided. Perhaps so, but it doesn't match my observations of reality. So, to me it is wise to be prepared to deal with wx that is significantly worse than expected, and that is the origin of my comments. Absurd? Perhaps to you, mate, but not to me!

Cheers,

Jim

[Celestialsailor]

I would like to add that not all furlers are equal. The old Cruising design furlers were nightmares. The 3 big name companies...Harken, Schaefer and Pro furl have been around for a long time now with very minor changes to their design and I do not see a lot of people screaming terror about them. Aside from these brands are some very expensive furlers. Which I hear are extremely reliable.

[bobconnie]

We just had our first furling jib set up!! All I can say is , we would have used a hank on more then we did the furling set up cus it was a pain in the butt to us ! it was way to big a sail for the boat ! and in anything above 15 knots we were back to useing just the staysail and main and mizzen! Or even just staysail and mizzen! Of course we have come from useing junk sails for 20 + years with no jib at all!! I would rather have a few different size jibs, to use in different conditions, then trying to semi-furl a furling jib set up !! On our 51ft staysail ketch the furling jib has proved to us we have not missed anything by not haveing one before !! We sure don't use it as much as we would hank on's if we have an assortment of sails for the jib set up !! It really made 2 handing sailing a little harder!! Because of the size of the jib and the effort to use it !! So far we use the staysail, and some combo of main and mizzen more the anything !! but then we are old and sorta like to do things EASY LOL

[CruisingCouple]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

A later CC post suggests that by careful selection of sailing conditions the need to do heavy weather sail changes can be avoided. Perhaps so, but it doesn't match my observations of reality.

Jim, I appreciate your comments. However, I suspect you think we are not experienced enough to make this decision. I will warn that I have met a few ocean cruisers that laugh at us Great Lakes sailors because they think we don't have the experience.

I suspect we do things a bit different even on good days on Superior than most do for ocean cruising. For instance we rig our boat with jacklines and never leave the cockpit without hooking the tether up even on a perfect day. If we're more than 10 miles out never go on the deck without wearing the suit. The reason for that is that even on a good day on Superior if you go in the water the pucker factor is pretty big and you'll last about 20 minutes without the suit before you get to the point where what you have onboard the boat is not going to be sufficient to bring your body core temp back up.

Even on a sunny hot summer day out in the middle of Superior it's COLD. You'll be wearing a winter jacket. If it's cloudy, raining and miserable, you'll be wearing the suit. If you're within sight of the shores where help is less than an hour away, then it's not as big of a deal. But there are few recreational boats on Superior that venture out of the protected (and warmer) waters around the Apostles or more than 10-15 miles out from shore.

There are over 350 shipwrecks laying on the bottom of Lake Superior, included among them some of the mightiest freighters ever built, two US Navy cutters, and the only cutter the USCG has ever lost at sea in the last 35 years. Off Whitefish Point alone there are more than 240 ships laying on the bottom, including the 800 foot freighter Edmund Fitzgerald that went down in a storm with all hands on Nov 10, 1975.

These are the conditions and place we learned in. The day sailors and weekenders who slip their boats in the marinas never leave the "comfort zone" in the warmer waters on the west shores and around the Apostles. And even then the USCG Bayfield station rescues several boats and crews a year that get into trouble around the Islands - 90% of them powerboaters.

So Jim, while we avoid it at all costs because of the place we sail in - we are well prepared and probably better trained on reefing down than some people who have spent their entire sailing experience on blue water. I have met a few blue water sailors who can't fathom it. But the other Great Lakes sailors who have tackled Superior know what I'm talking about. She's beautiful. But I believe her current ranking is the #3 most dangerous body of water on earth for sailors.

[gjordan]

This is starting to sound too much like a Scoobert thread. The OP askes a question, but his mind is already made up, so why bother? This is beyond the educational value. Just my opinion. _____Grant.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by gjordan

This is starting to sound too much like a Scoobert thread. The OP askes a question, but his mind is already made up, so why bother? This is beyond the educational value. Just my opinion. _____Grant.

I love it Grant...We are Scoobertizing threads...that was pretty funny

[CruisingCouple]

Originally Posted by gjordan

This is starting to sound too much like a Scoobert thread. The OP askes a question, but his mind is already made up, so why bother?

I'll tell you right now that it wasn't made up when I asked it. But after hearing all the input, I'll probably stick with hank-on and ditch that furler. It will depend on what the sailmaker says when we send in that roller genny and find out how if it can be cut down for a working jib. And how much we have to spend on new sails that way vs having the luff modified on the new genny we got for the furler, and still have the sail selection we need by cutting down the original.

I don't know about "Scoobert thread" but if it's a big joke I won't bother asking any more questions.

Otherwise I'd like to thank those that provided much appreciated input on the issue.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by CruisingCouple

I'll tell you right now that it wasn't made up when I asked it. But after hearing all the input, I'll probably stick with hank-on and ditch that furler. It will depend on what the sailmaker says when we send in that roller genny and find out how if it can be cut down for a working jib. And how much we have to spend on new sails that way vs having the luff modified on the new genny we got for the furler, and still have the sail selection we need by cutting down the original.

I don't know about "Scoobert thread" but if it's a big joke I won't bother asking any more questions.

Otherwise I'd like to thank those that provided much appreciated input on the issue.

No please CC...it was a joke and not at your expense. You would have had to follow some thread by the individual of that name.
By the way. One thing to keep in mind and it is true for going hanks to RF as it is RF to hank. That is if the sail is slightly bagged (as I call it), meaning the cord of the foil shape moves towards the rear of the sail, cutting off the luff moves it back forward and actually brings new life into the sail. Just a tid bit but it does ad a year or so.

[CruisingCouple]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

By the way. One thing to keep in mind and it is true for going hanks to RF as it is RF to hank. That is if the sail is slightly bagged (as I call it), meaning the cord of the foil shape moves towards the rear of the sail, cutting off the luff moves it back forward and actually brings new life into the sail. Just a tid bit but it does ad a year or so.

Thanks, and yes I know that can be done. What is a little disappointing is that we did NOT get the sails with the boat that was advertised in the ad. And we had a survey done on the boat that didn't catch that fact either.

I got a call into the broker's cell phone to find out where our storm jib is. Maybe it was an oversight and they thought the new sail in the bag was the storm jib. Or maybe the previous owner has the sail at home in the bag. Whatever the deal is - we were supposed to get two mains (which we got), a roller furled 130 genny, which we got. And a storm jib (which we didn't get but got a hank-on 130 or 135 genny instead). There's no inner forestay on the boat so if a storm jib does exist someplace for it, as advertised, it would have to be like one of those ATN Gale Sails (or whatever they're called) that go over the roller I would think.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by CruisingCouple

Jim, I appreciate your comments. However, I suspect you think we are not experienced enough to make this decision. I will warn that I have met a few ocean cruisers that laugh at us Great Lakes sailors because they think we don't have the experience.

I suspect we do things a bit different even on good days on Superior than most do for ocean cruising. For instance we rig our boat with jacklines and never leave the cockpit without hooking the tether up even on a perfect day. If we're more than 10 miles out never go on the deck without wearing the suit. The reason for that is that even on a good day on Superior if you go in the water the pucker factor is pretty big and you'll last about 20 minutes without the suit before you get to the point where what you have onboard the boat is not going to be sufficient to bring your body core temp back up.

...

So Jim, while we avoid it at all costs because of the place we sail in - we are well prepared and probably better trained on reefing down than some people who have spent their entire sailing experience on blue water. I have met a few blue water sailors who can't fathom it. But the other Great Lakes sailors who have tackled Superior know what I'm talking about. She's beautiful. But I believe her current ranking is the #3 most dangerous body of water on earth for sailors.

G'Day again CC,

Well, I must admit that perceived inexperience did flavour some of my comments, and if that is offensive, I apologize. But a few comments that you made lead me in that direction... ie, in #13 you thought that one could reef down a larger headsail to a storm jib in 2 to 3 minutes, under the conditions where you would be needing that small sail. That sounded a bit naive to me! And not realizing that sails are nearly all "custom made" added to that opinion, and so on. I meant no disrespect, but as you may have noticed, we get a lot of really inexperienced folks here on CF and I try to aim my words towards the experience level I surmise from the posters questions and comments. As always, I'm imperfect at that!

I do appreciate that there can be bad conditions on the Lakes, for I grew up on Lake Michigan and was privy to all the folklore. Superior is doubtless capable of terrifying wx and sea states, (primarily in the off seasons?), and respect is required. I was not aware that few went more than 10-15 miles from harbour, though, and that does help in avoiding severe wx. So, perhaps you will never need the storm jib at all, nor even need to do many sail changes, and your sails will remain unwrinkled.

Finally, I'm curious as to the source of the "#3 most dangerous" quote, and what criteria were used to determine that statistic. And really, I simply can't imagine needing to wear a survival suit when out for a daysail in the summer -- if that was the case for me, I'd be looking for transport south or a new hobby/addiction/lifestyle. Gives me goosebumps just reading about it!

I think we've beaten this about to death now, so enjoy your new boat and try to stay warm and on board.

Jim

[CruisingCouple]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, I must admit that perceived inexperience did flavour some of my comments, and if that is offensive, I apologize.

Hi Jim, there is no apology needed.

We have never had to buy any sails. So I was unaware that all sails are custom made. We sailed with what we had for 8 years - what came with the boat.

I don't remember where I saw that #3 most dangerous factoid. But I think it was on a flyer or something I picked up at the USCG station once on boating safety on Lake Superior. The main problem with Superior is that when a Noreaster hits and she stirs up 20 foot seas on 7 second wave interval it gets downright brutal. Michigan is much warmer, not as wild in a blow and we've had more pleasant sailing experiences on Michigan than on Superior.

Out new boat is not going to be a Laker. We're going to sail her to the Gulf via the river system from Chicago. Once we get her to the ocean she is not coming home.

[boatman61]

Should mention.. if your forestay is not tensioned correctly... your gonna get baggy furling.. and.. if you did not know sails were custom made for each model of boat..
Man.. that's like me buying a suit off the peg and wondering why the legs are to short and the sleeves are to long..

Just joking...