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Old 22-12-2013, 11:27   #46
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

John B. Leaving a hanked on jib on the stay in a bag works good if you only sail in one wind condition, but if you sail any distance you will need a variety of different sail sizes as wind and sea state change, so you will still have bags down below or tied on deck. A roller headsail works better on a double headsail rig, so that you can roll the genoa , or slightly reef it, and when the wind picks up you roll it all the way and depend on your staysail. To get the best performance out of a sloop you need different sails for each condition. My first boat (26 foot) came with 3 headsails and I made a drifter for it. I had a roller working jib cut for it, that set just aft of the headstay. 5 headsails for a cruising sloop in not really unusual. My next boat (37 foot sloop) came with 3 hanked on headsails, and I always wanted a big drifter, but never got around to making one. Next boat (44 foot cutter) came rigged as a sloop with only 2 headsails. This had roller furling and I liked it, but I went ahead and finished the rigging for the inner forestay and had a staysail cut, I also bought a used spinny that I never ended up using. That makes 12 headsails for 3 boats. I am not a fanatic nor a racer, but I like to sail well. I dont think anyone goes cruising with just one headsail. My next boat will be between 30 and 35 feet (thats the plan anyway) and will most likely be a sloop, but I will rig a removable inner forestay. If the boat comes with roller headsails I will probably stick with that and maybe get a genoa staysail and a storm staysail cut, so that I will have the fewest headsail changes. Changing staysails back from the bow is much easier than working at the bow with headsails. As far as reliability of roller rigs, I think if they are maintained properly they are fine. My very old Hood Seafurl on my 44 started getting stiff, so I took it apart and went to the auto parts store and bought new bearings and it worked great for a few more years. I changed bearings twice in 8 years, which I dont think is too much maintainence. You can cruise very well with hank on sails or roller, but roller makes more sense with a double headsail rig. Another of my long winded 2 cents worth. _____Grant.
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Old 22-12-2013, 11:30   #47
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

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Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
would it make sense to clear the foredeck for anchoring by lifting the aft end of the bag using sinnaker toping lift or spare halyard?
Yes and we do, but it is very narrow up on our bow. I've thought of attaching a little um lanyard extension type to attach to tack, that would get the sail bag even higher off the deck. With the sail bag above, the long one, I can flake the sail neater and the sail won't bulk up around the forestay. I haven't made it yet so I'll let you know if it was a bust.
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Old 22-12-2013, 12:28   #48
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Re: Switching back to hank-on for the headsail

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Yes, people can make fun of this if they want. We never went to any sailing school or anything. We were taught how to sail by the original owner of our first boat, who had bought it new and had been sailing for 47 years. He taught us how to properly flake, roll and bag a sail so it doesn't get wrinkles in it. And taught us that if a sail is hoisted with wrinkles in it it wasn't put away right.

Maybe more of that "purist" stuff. I don't know. But it was how we were taught to do it.
I'm not trying to sound rude or abusive but really...what does it mater if your sails are wrinkled? Any wind in them and they are going to be a true air-foil unless they are worn out. Keep the furler, sail the boat and experience the convenience of it.
Ok...I feel better now.
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Old 22-12-2013, 12:52   #49
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

I don't think it's an anti fuller thing, just a preference. I think we'd go furler for the forestay, but do not want to spend the 4-6+ thousand to make it happen. We would rather get out there sooner and stay out there longer.

I do take pride in a beautifully flaked sail, it's just so darn satisfying. Besides, wrinkles weaken the fibers. That's 101 proper sail handling ( ok. I feel better now )
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Old 22-12-2013, 13:28   #50
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

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Yes and we do, but it is very narrow up on our bow. I've thought of attaching a little um lanyard extension type to attach to tack, that would get the sail bag even higher off the deck. With the sail bag above, the long one, I can flake the sail neater and the sail won't bulk up around the forestay. I haven't made it yet so I'll let you know if it was a bust.
OC if you take the tack off you can lift the whole bag up the forestay above your head. I used to do this on a 30 footer that had hank on sails. Looks odd and you will get "looks" from others but it works. Just don't forget to reattach the tack before the next hoist.
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Old 22-12-2013, 13:39   #51
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

G'Day again, CC,

I've noted all your comments on purism and sail handling issues, and while I admire purity of thought and practice, I must wonder if you guys have actually done many sail changes in heavy weather conditions?

I understand that with a downhaul one can strike a sail from the cockpit, and that is a good thing for sure. But, one is then left with a sail that is flogging away, secured by the sheet and the luff, but with the leech and most of the sail area pretty loosely confined. So, you must go forward to secure the sail. Neatly folding and rolling and bagging are, in my experience, simply not achievable under storm conditions... that is a dream in the real world. And so you are likely to bundle the sail along the toe rail... at least that is what we used to do when short handed. Then, you must unhank that sail and hank on its smaller replacement, roll it out to w here you can attach the sheets, get the halyard and downhaul rigged without loosing them to the wind and then orchestrate hoisting the sail without its flogging itself to death before being able to trim it in. Can it be done? Well, sure it can, but it is a process that is laden with risk to gear and to bodies.

If your boat has a staysail, the situation is somewhat improved in that you don't have to remove the genoa in order to use a smaller sail, but the requirement to go forward to stow the genoa is still there, and the gap between the size of the genoa and the staysail may leave you underpowered in some wind strengths.

There are folks who have successfully cruised with hank on sails... and that includes us, BTW. We changed from hanks to a magazine-loading system called a "K-Z foil", and that was a major improvement (I also used that for single-handed ocean racing before we set out cruising), and after our first decade of full time cruising, we finally bought our first furler. I would not go back to either hanks or the K-Z, but then we're getting a bit old for foredeck gymnastics. What you decide is up to you, but please do be aware that while hank on sails may be "pure", they can make ocean cruising more hazardous and more work in an environment where fatigue is an ever present threat.

There! Another old fart heard from!

Jim
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Old 22-12-2013, 13:59   #52
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Re: Switching back to hank-on for the headsail

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I'm not trying to sound rude or abusive but really...what does it mater if your sails are wrinkled?
It probably doesn't matter, I don't know. It's kind of like your sheets - why coil them neatly? Why not just throw them in a locker in a big wad and sort it out later? Taking care of the sails so they last a long time and look good is what we were taught to do.
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Old 22-12-2013, 14:09   #53
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

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I've noted all your comments on purism and sail handling issues, and while I admire purity of thought and practice, I must wonder if you guys have actually done many sail changes in heavy weather conditions?
Hi Jim - no, our only experience so far is on the Great Lakes (most Lake Superior) and we have never had to. We listen to the radio and watch the weather. If weather is coming in and there's a small craft advisory, and we're stuck 5-6 hours out, we have always swapped the sails out and reefed the main down before the weather gets there.

Lake Superior has really cold water - rarely above 40-45 degrees. And it is one of the wildest places on earth to sail when she gets stirred up. We were taught early on that you don't put yourself in that situation on Lake Superior or you will not survive it. The guy that taught us to sail said he had sailed every ocean on earth in his life and we were learning on the most dangerous of them all. We took it to heart and never take any chances.
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Old 22-12-2013, 14:45   #54
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Re: Switching back to hank-on for the headsail

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Originally Posted by CruisingCouple View Post
It probably doesn't matter, I don't know. It's kind of like your sheets - why coil them neatly? Why not just throw them in a locker in a big wad and sort it out later? Taking care of the sails so they last a long time and look good is what we were taught to do.
Apples and oranges here. You coil a line and stow it in a seaman like fashion in order to deploy it for purpose quickly and efficiently. Your gripe about wrinkles, I believe, was that of aesthetic. If a sail is rolled up on a furler with it's UV cover...that's not neat? You know...go ahead and use hanks...really....it will be a good experience for you. You will have a nice looking dock queen with crisp folds in your stowed sails. I use to be the same way with varnished teak. Now I've regressed into something less than a normal man.
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Old 22-12-2013, 15:20   #55
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Re: Switching back to hank-on for the headsail

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If a sail is rolled up on a furler with it's UV cover...that's not neat? You know...go ahead and use hanks...really....it will be a good experience for you
The way our genny was rolled on that furler, in my opinion it damaged it. We're going to send it in to Vector and we'll see what they say about it.

We always have used hanks. And sure the sails on this boat are bigger. But we were handling it in my shop yesterday here and it no problem at all. And our new boat has one heck of a lot more room on the foredeck than our old one had. We don't see it as a problem

It's not a thing where I hate roller furlers. It's a thing where it's not what I'm used to and I'm not too impressed with how it works. I was just curious if other cruisers use hank-on headsails and obviously a lot do. Both my wife and I looked at it and we both would prefer to stick with what we're used to. We both know how to fix hank-on sails if something happens like a hank breaks or whatever. This roller furler we're not that sure of, what we'd do if something happens to it that renders it useless.

So if our boat is considered a "dock queen" because it has a hank-on headsail - so be it. At least we won't be getting tangled up in those damn lines dangling off that roller furler
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Old 22-12-2013, 15:28   #56
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

Celest, you seem to take this personally( calling her a dock queen). Gads, furlers have only been around for what 30ish years, people did fine without em. Furlers are more convenient in many ways, and in certain circumstances safer. But to be fair they are not perfect and can also be unsafe. I've been in a couple circumstances where our furler failed, and they seem to only fail when there is a darn black line of clouds coming. Not knocking furlers, just keepin it real
For some sailors, hank ons tip the scale because of sail shape, for some it's the simplistic less to break mentality.
To each her/his own.
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Old 22-12-2013, 15:30   #57
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

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I've noted all your comments on purism and sail handling issues, and while I admire purity of thought and practice, I must wonder if you guys have actually done many sail changes in heavy weather conditions?
....
What you decide is up to you, but please do be aware that while hank on sails may be "pure", they can make ocean cruising more hazardous and more work in an environment where fatigue is an ever present threat.
The insinuation that if you opt not to use a furler it is a patently irrational choice driven by notions of "purity" is absurd. Plenty of people chose to stick with hank on sails for very good reasons. There are also good reasons to switch to a furler. Neither choice is mandated by logic as you insinuate. You list some good reasons to consider a furler, especially on a boat your size, but there are plenty of people who have done many sail changes in heavy weather that still opt for hank on sails for perfectly sound reasons.
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Old 22-12-2013, 15:32   #58
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pirate Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

There's only one for the furler.. and that usually is run along the toe rail... if you mean the sheets... that's easy.. tension them after you've furled..
Just coz I've used hank ons on 1/3rds of my boats does not mean I'm a fan.. just means I sail with what I've got.
Furlers rock..
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Old 22-12-2013, 15:38   #59
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

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Originally Posted by CruisingCouple View Post
The way our genny was rolled on that furler, in my opinion it damaged it. We're going to send it in to Vector and we'll see what they say about it.

We always have used hanks. And sure the sails on this boat are bigger. But we were handling it in my shop yesterday here and it no problem at all. And our new boat has one heck of a lot more room on the foredeck than our old one had. We don't see it as a problem

It's not a thing where I hate roller furlers. It's a thing where it's not what I'm used to and I'm not too impressed with how it works. I was just curious if other cruisers use hank-on headsails and obviously a lot do. Both my wife and I looked at it and we both would prefer to stick with what we're used to. We both know how to fix hank-on sails if something happens like a hank breaks or whatever. This roller furler we're not that sure of, what we'd do if something happens to it that renders it useless.

So if our boat is considered a "dock queen" because it has a hank-on headsail - so be it. At least we won't be getting tangled up in those damn lines dangling off that roller furler
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Celest, you seem to take this personally( calling her a dock queen). Gads, furlers have only been around for what 30ish years, people did fine without em. Furlers are more convenient in many ways, and in certain circumstances safer. But to be fair they are not perfect and can also be unsafe. I've been in a couple circumstances where our furler failed, and they seem to only fail when there is a darn black line of clouds coming. Not knocking furlers, just keepin it real
For some sailors, hank ons tip the scale because of sail shape, for some it's the simplistic less to break mentality.
To each her/his own.
Peace
Quite right...dock queen was a poor choice of words on my part...I apologize. My opinion is that hank on is a good option for weekending and day sailing. But at night blowing 25 into a head sea (and that is common), then roller furling (a good one), for me, is the way to go. I have owned 6 boats. Three without and three with, so it's not like I don't have the experience.
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Old 22-12-2013, 17:44   #60
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

@ Jim and boaty:

I didn't have your mechanical problem with my jib, but yes it was heavy duty and didn't point high -- a jib not a genny. In heavy weather, worked like a charm. I set reef points first then lower and reset tack. The tack was set high on wire (name not coming to me). This was on a sloop.

I wanted to save space and money, and the roller I had was unreliable, cheap, and came with the boat. Also I had a bunch of sails on hanks that were purchased with the boat that weren't usable with a fixed furler so off it came. And had to beef rigging anyway, Didn't trust rollers at that time either.

Anyway, it worked for me, but my boat was small. You have to look at the given circumstances. A larger boat, cutter rig, etc...may not work. Also, think furlers more reliable maybe these days? Well, not by the sounds of it here...
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