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Old 22-12-2013, 07:34   #31
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pirate Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
CC, in my post 12 above I was having a bit of a joke about Saltymonkey's typo, but I was serious about the difficulties with reefing foresails. I've had several over the years, and none of them actually worked in anger very well. The big issues for you are:

1. Getting the bunt of now unused sail to stay bundled up and secure, and having decent sail shape when reefed.

2. The extra weight of the reefing cringle and patches makes the sail prone to leech flutter when used full size.

3. Actually performing the reefing exercise on a pitching, wet foredeck (the kind of conditions where you need the storm jib) is no 2-3 minute task. I found it to be a risky and exhausting performance (on 22, 30 and 36 foot boats that I owned over the years).

4. The sailcloth weight required for a genoa and a storm jib are very different. If you try to use what was once a 130 genoa cut down to a #2 size you will have stretch issues. If you try to use it for a storm jib you will have self destruction issues... especially starting out with a well used sail with some UV damage.

The one place where one sees success in a reefing headsail is with boomed jibs and staysails. In those cases, the reefing process is much the same as with a mainsail, and it can actually work ok.

There is a reason that you don't see many reefing foresails in use...

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Old 22-12-2013, 07:35   #32
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

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Originally Posted by CruisingCouple View Post
We have a new (to us) Hunter 37 with a CDI roller furler. I have the boat in my shop for the winter doing refits. I took some time off from working on the deck and rolled the 130 genoa out to look at it for the first time since we bought the boat. I am not all that impressed with how tightly and evenly the sail was rolled on the furler. The sail is all wrinkled up and that irks me. It is otherwise in excellent condition but I don't how to get what looks like permanent wrinkles out of it. My wife washed it this morning and we hung it on some racks to dry. The wrinkles are still in it and it looks like the previous owner did not pay attention to keeping proper tension on the sheet when rolling it up so the sail was repeatedly rolled on the furler in random fashion.

I am seriously considering taking the roller furler off and going with hank-on and a downhaul line like our previous boat had. I could care less about the convenience of roller furling. I guess I'm sort of old-school that way, as neither me nor my wife has any problems with going forward to swap jibs out. We've done it for 8 years with our old boat.

I guess what I'm wondering is if some of the more experienced have any compelling reasons (other than convenience) why I should not do this.
I start to worry about Nylon when it will not hold wrinkles(dish ragged)..Wrinkels mean new(er) cloth,I have several sails that have no wrinkles that I will trade for wrinkly ones ha ha...
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Old 22-12-2013, 08:04   #33
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

I like our hank ons, I like roller furling too. I trust hank ons, I don't trust roller furling, shrug.
Our biggest issue with our hank ons are, as rain dog stated earlier, the bulk of sail bag where you need to work when anchoring. I'm going to make a new sail bag that should help this problem. As far as sailing, the sail shape is just better, less windage, dropping sail is fast.

Just wanted to post a pic of the sail bag I think will make working forward a bit easier.
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Old 22-12-2013, 08:06   #34
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

Here is what we have now.
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Old 22-12-2013, 08:51   #35
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Re: Irked?!?

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Originally Posted by Lin Pardey View Post
Hanked on headsails have loads of advantages, especially as to longevity and good shape. Seen far to many roller furling sails flog themselves to bits during storms while boats were at anchor or in marinas too.

We have used both reefing headsails and an upgrade called a bonneted sail - i.e. with a portion that zips off. Really liked both but the reefing headsail only worked for smaller sails, not for genoa. Zippered or bonneted jib let us have the appropriate weight of cloth for each part of the sail - i.e. our 100 percent jib had a bonnet made of lighter fabric for when we wanted more sail area.
I feel that a vessel under, say, 32 feet does not need a roller furling and the area of a jib that size is easy to change out. But a roller furling is a convenience as not have to go forward on a pitching deck. As far a sails flogging themselves to bits, that is a problem with the owner not properly securing the system. My Harkin has a hole in the drum to place a pin as an anti-rotate device to ensure the sail does not unwind.
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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Irked?!?

By a fold in your furling jib?

C'mon.
I was amazed it took this long in the thread for someone to say it. Maybe they should have ironed it. 10 knots of wind in the sail and it's a flat brick wall. Here in La Paz out of maybe 500 boats throughout the bay, I doubt you could count 20 boats without roller furling.
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Old 22-12-2013, 09:11   #36
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

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This is just my opinion, purists may jump in and say otherwise. Your boat is not small an neither are her sails. Its easier to put a tent back in its bag during a cyclone than to douse a flapping sail on a dark, windy and pitching fordeck.
Yes, I can see all that. I guess maybe we were taught to sail by a purist and how to rig a downhaul line back to the cockpit as one of the first things we ever learned. So the other side of the coin is what if you get caught in pitch black, rising wind and seas, the boat way over-canvassed and that contraption on the forestay jams? Perhaps the general consensus is that "they never jam". But looking at it and how its designed I can see several ways that it could get jammed in 30-40 kt wind with too much canvas hanging off it.

The chances of my downhaul rig failing in an emergency are about zero to none. And that's just the way I was taught. I'm comfortable with the way I was taught to do it, even on this 37 footer. Not so much with roller furler.

And by the way - I don't believe any manufacturer recommends using roller furlers to reef a headsail.
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Old 22-12-2013, 09:19   #37
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Re: Switching back to hank-on for the headsail

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post

If you think wrinkles are bad with RF, try stuffing a sail in a bag and see how it looks afterward. Then there is the problem of where to stow all those bags of sails especially when the size of the bag has blown up because the sail was stuffed. Don't have the time, crew or space to fold a sail each time there is a change.
It is a sin to stuff sails into a bag. With hanked on sails you can fold the sail as it comes down before you unhook the hanks. Then just roll it up from the clew. Many people leave their sails hanked on all the time and have custom covers made. That doesn't take up any cabin space.
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Old 22-12-2013, 09:58   #38
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Re: Switching back to hank-on for the headsail

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Originally Posted by blewett_john View Post
It is a sin to stuff sails into a bag. With hanked on sails you can fold the sail as it comes down before you unhook the hanks. Then just roll it up from the clew. Many people leave their sails hanked on all the time and have custom covers made. That doesn't take up any cabin space.
Yes, people can make fun of this if they want. We never went to any sailing school or anything. We were taught how to sail by the original owner of our first boat, who had bought it new and had been sailing for 47 years. He taught us how to properly flake, roll and bag a sail so it doesn't get wrinkles in it. And taught us that if a sail is hoisted with wrinkles in it it wasn't put away right.

Maybe more of that "purist" stuff. I don't know. But it was how we were taught to do it.
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Old 22-12-2013, 10:02   #39
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

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Originally Posted by Ocean Girl View Post
I like our hank ons, I like roller furling too. I trust hank ons, I don't trust roller furling, shrug.
Our biggest issue with our hank ons are, as rain dog stated earlier, the bulk of sail bag where you need to work when anchoring. I'm going to make a new sail bag that should help this problem. As far as sailing, the sail shape is just better, less windage, dropping sail is fast.

Just wanted to post a pic of the sail bag I think will make working forward a bit easier.
would it make sense to clear the foredeck for anchoring by lifting the aft end of the bag using sinnaker toping lift or spare halyard?
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Old 22-12-2013, 10:10   #40
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Re: Switching back to hank-on for the headsail

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Have sailed tens of thousands of miles without roller furling and a few thousand with it. It's just so convenient. Would never go back to hank on sails.

If you think wrinkles are bad with RF, try stuffing a sail in a bag and see how it looks afterward. Then there is the problem of where to stow all those bags of sails especially when the size of the bag has blown up because the sail was stuffed. Don't have the time, crew or space to fold a sail each time there is a change. Definitely not a good environment for pressed tidy whities.
Exactly what I was going to say.... you aint seen wrinkles until you fold or stuff sails in a bag! The fold lines become permanent. There's nothing more convenient than roller furling especially if you are not world sailing but going on day trips etc.
I've got nothing against hank on at all though. On a newly acquired boat under 35 feet I would likely leave hank on on the boat if it was already that way.
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Old 22-12-2013, 10:26   #41
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Re: Switching back to hank-on for the headsail

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Exactly what I was going to say.... you aint seen wrinkles until you fold or stuff sails in a bag! The fold lines become permanent.
Maybe we were taught all wrong? The sails for our old boat seemed to develop a "memory" as to where the flake creases are. When they come down they pretty much flake by themselves, unless there's some wind blowing the sail around and your first mate has to help it a little. We were taught that if the sail is not taken care of it looses its "memory" as to where the flake creases should be.

Never once in 8 years did we ever hoist a sail that looked like it had been wadded up in a bag - because we never did that. The only thing our old sails had as far as "wrinkles" was the flake creases as it went up. It was how we were taught that a sail should look like when it is hoisted.
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Old 22-12-2013, 10:32   #42
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Re: Switching back to hank-on for the headsail

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...With hanked on sails you can fold the sail as it comes down before you unhook the hanks. Then just roll it up from the clew...
An even easier way, if conditions permit, is to sail close hauled on port tack and then heave to. This leaves the jib backwinded on a starboard "tack" and the downhaul, when used, will actually allow the sail to fold itself! Think about it for a minute...

Jib size selection: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7704.0.html 130 genoas make little sense, at least to me. Why have that big a sail if your don't need it? One poster mentioned a 110 and a drifter. Not much more one really needs. But, your boat, your choice.
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Old 22-12-2013, 11:11   #43
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Re: Switching back to hank-on for the headsail

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Maybe we were taught all wrong? The sails for our old boat seemed to develop a "memory" as to where the flake creases are. When they come down they pretty much flake by themselves, unless there's some wind blowing the sail around and your first mate has to help it a little. We were taught that if the sail is not taken care of it looses its "memory" as to where the flake creases should be.

Never once in 8 years did we ever hoist a sail that looked like it had been wadded up in a bag - because we never did that. The only thing our old sails had as far as "wrinkles" was the flake creases as it went up. It was how we were taught that a sail should look like when it is hoisted.
Nah... you were taught right.... I'm just sayin you get some sort of wrinkles no matter what.. and who cares? There are two schools of thought though, some come down on the Stuff it side. Personally I think it makes the bag too big, but it does get rid of the semi permanent crease issue. I've raced with guys that insist you fold it in a differnt spot each time...
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Old 22-12-2013, 11:14   #44
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Re: Switching back to hank-on for the headsail

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Originally Posted by blewett_john View Post
It is a sin to stuff sails into a bag. With hanked on sails you can fold the sail as it comes down before you unhook the hanks. Then just roll it up from the clew. Many people leave their sails hanked on all the time and have custom covers made. That doesn't take up any cabin space.
THIS DEPENDS ENTIRELY ON THE SIZE OF THE SAIL.

I agree with Celestialsailor on the need/cut-off point for roller furling. It will vary based on your rig & deck and also your age & agility. The 37 foot Heritage I raced with 6 to 8 crew was easy to flake on deck. We pulled the sail down the track and made perfect folds. We had a full foot length bag to zipper around it so it never got out of control. Doing this with one or two on a boat this size could be a different matter.

I never thought I would own a boat with roller anything. Now, I would not go back. I also would not want to be wrestling up close with our sails in a blow & I certainly would not want my wife out there in a mess. I used to walk the jib around the cutter stay to tack but after repeated whuppins we bought a Milwaukee right angle 1/2 inch drive to partially furl for tacks. The jib has furling pads along the luff to help make it keep shape as it is partially furled. We refer not to use this feature, however, I noticed that it helps make a nice flat, tight furl when we douse (furl) the sail.

The foot of my jib is 30 feet, mast is 80, jib weighs at least 200#, stiff as cardboard 5-layer fusion membrane. We loosly flake it on deck at season's end and pack it to a grassy area to flake and bag. It takes two of us to lift the bag barely off the ground. We up-end roll the bag into the truck. Taking it down under way would be more dangerous than we could deal with. I can't imagine having its hanked on equal all over the deck for anchoring.
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Old 22-12-2013, 11:21   #45
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Re: Switching Back to Hank-on for the Headsail

folding and rolling a sail at the dock is one thing, in the middle of a sail change in 30 knots and a wet foredeck... stuff it!
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