Stupid question?

[jeanathon]

So I need a new jib halyard. Wire to rope. Is there only one way of doing this, ie paying someone to make the traditional splice or could I attach the wire to rope like I would to different size ropes or shackles, etc?

[Calif.Ted]

Modern low stretch lines make it possible to replace your halyards without wire, your existing masthead sheeve may accommodate rope or need replacement if it's wire only.

[UNCIVILIZED]

You can have most kinds of rope spliced directly to wire, either by splicing it yourself, or hiring out the job. Since good rigging shops do this Sailboat Running and Standing Rigging Services | APS

Or you can cut the wire to whatever length you like, & add terminals to it's ends, or nicopress some thimbles into each end. So that you then can attach whatever sort of rope tail to it that you like. Though the halyard will then be limited in it's ability to run over the sheave, by the location of those fittings on the wire.

Then there's the more modern option of using a quailty, low stretch line, for the whole length of your halyards. So that it easily runs over your sheaves for it's full length, as well as being easy to remove for inspection, or in order to change it out. Samson's Warpspeed is a very popular one for this, as it's core is SK78 Dyneema, & it has a polyester jacket.

Also, one option used by some to get high performance at low cost, is to splice a standard piece of double braid to the tail end of some Warpspeed (or similar). Where the double braid tail only makes up the section of the halyard that sees very little load. So that the halyard's loaded section is high strength, & low stretch, with a cheap tail. However, these halyards can't be swapped end for end as they wear. Though sometimes you can cut a few feet off of the low stretch section where it's worn, & add another eye splice for your hardware. Having cut off the worn portion, in doing this.

I recommend going to a fully synthetic halyard like Warpspeed, after ensuring that you're sheave is smooth, & burr free. Ditto on the rest of the spar, where the halyard will be.
Have a look at some of the options, & recommendations. Sailing, Rigging, Running Rigging Rope


Edit: The link above will also let you see how much each material stretches. And with some lines, the stretch is on par with, or less than the equivilant wire.

[Exile]

Definitely not a stupid question, and good advice about replacing wire/rope with all rope when it's feasible to also replace sheaves to accommodate.

For better or worse, my boat's masthead sheave box is welded shut and difficult to see inside. I have been told it has bronze sheaves with the internal groove designed for wire/rope and so that is what I am about to replace my main & jib halyards with. They are both on furlers and so the halyards don't see much use. I was told that wire is actually well-suited for staying in place around a sheave for long periods of time, and both of my halyards are at least 10 yrs. old.

Two more potentially stupid questions for Uncivilized & others:

1. The last time I removed these halyards for inspection I used a thin length of dyneema as a messenger line that I tied with a bowline to a spliced loop (designed for that purpose) on the end of the rope portion of the halyard. I believe the bowline knot got stuck in the sheave groove and I was lucky to finally get it freed. Better to use a messenger line more closely sized to the halyard rope diameter? If so, then how best to attach? Some say to stitch together while others say carefully applied duct tape will suffice.

2. A bit off-topic, but is dyneema unduly sensitive to UV? I have used it on my running backstays as well as for part of my preventer set-up and it has faded over the years. Wondering if fading also means deterioration and it's time for replacing those as well?

As always, any & all feedback would be most appreciated.

[Rock-Head]

Originally Posted by Exile

1. The last time I removed these halyards for inspection I used a thin length of dyneema as a messenger line that I tied with a bowline to a spliced loop (designed for that purpose) on the end of the rope portion of the halyard. I believe the bowline knot got stuck in the sheave groove and I was lucky to finally get it freed. Better to use a messenger line more closely sized to the halyard rope diameter? If so, then how best to attach? Some say to stitch together while others say carefully applied duct tape will suffice.

I've had great success wipping new halyard to old, pulling through the mast, up and over masthead, down to the deck. Works a treat. I'd be worried duct tape would tear/rip if the process got snagged at any point.


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[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Exile

Definitely not a stupid question, and good advice about replacing wire/rope with all rope when it's feasible to also replace sheaves to accommodate.

For better or worse, my boat's masthead sheave box is welded shut and difficult to see inside. I have been told it has bronze sheaves with the internal groove designed for wire/rope and so that is what I am about to replace my main & jib halyards with. They are both on furlers and so the halyards don't see much use. I was told that wire is actually well-suited for staying in place around a sheave for long periods of time, and both of my halyards are at least 10 yrs. old.

It's normal to remove sheaves out the front or rear of the spar. Loop a piece of line or wire around them prior to removing the pin through their center, so that you can't accidentally drop them.

Two more potentially stupid questions for Uncivilized & others:

1. The last time I removed these halyards for inspection I used a thin length of dyneema as a messenger line that I tied with a bowline to a spliced loop (designed for that purpose) on the end of the rope portion of the halyard. I believe the bowline knot got stuck in the sheave groove and I was lucky to finally get it freed. Better to use a messenger line more closely sized to the halyard rope diameter? If so, then how best to attach? Some say to stitch together while others say carefully applied duct tape will suffice.
I've always used a 4-5mm messenger line tied into a Reeving Splice in the halyard's end, & haven't had any issues in a few thousand trys. So I'm not sure what's going on. There's a how to instructional on Reeving Splices at Jamestown Distributors.

2. A bit off-topic, but is dyneema unduly sensitive to UV? I have used it on my running backstays as well as for part of my preventer set-up and it has faded over the years. Wondering if fading also means deterioration and it's time for replacing those as well?
Dyneema has outstanding UV resistance, though nothing is immortal. If you're concerned about the lines, swap them out. It's cheaper than the alternative, by far. How old are we talking, BTW?

As always, any & all feedback would be most appreciated.

You can do some reading on this stuff at various rigging, & line manufacturer's websites. As well as on Brion Toss's Forums. Plus I'd suggest gettting a few books on the topic, including some of Brion Toss's more recent works.

[barnakiel]

I simply splice the new halyard, onboard, by hand.

A 10+15 meter halyard comes at about $50 including the talurite job.

It is a very simple splice the only challenge is finding the right tail material (some tail materials are easier to splice than others). Get 2 ply material, avoid 3 ply. Use soft tail rope (lose weave).

b.

[Exile]

Thanks for all the replies, incl. the references for further research.

For better or worse, my practice thus far has been to run a messenger line off the end of the old halyard and then have a rigging shop make an exact duplicate. Eliminates any possibility of my screwing up the measuring.

My main & headsail wire-to-rope halyards came with the boat which I purchased 9 yrs. ago now. Not sure how long they had already been there but they looked fairly new at the time. A couple of years ago I sent them off to West Marine Rigging Services and they said they were fine & recommended not replacing them at that time. To the extent it matters, my in-mast roller furler mainsail only comes down 1x/yr., and the headsail only 2-3x/yr. when I leave the boat for extended periods.

Not exactly sure why my messenger line snagged the last time. I used 4mm dyneema with a bowline. Best guess is the knot approximated the width of the masthead sheave groove for the wire and it lodged in there. That's why I'm considering using a thicker line for a messenger this time.

The masthead sheave box appears to be welded shut with no easy access for sheave removal without taking the spars down. This is why I'm inclined not to transition to all-rope halyards. The added wgt. of the wire is not desirable but of little consequence in my mind given how heavy the Hood Stoway spar already is.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by Exile

...............................
................................
Not exactly sure why my messenger line snagged the last time. I used 4mm dyneema with a bowline. Best guess is the knot approximated the width of the masthead sheave groove for the wire and it lodged in there. That's why I'm considering using a thicker line for a messenger this time. ...................................

I agree that this is not a stupid question, but I do feel that it has an easy answer. From this quoted paragraph above, it seems that you have a clear image of your sheave. Your older wire-rope halyard did accommodate the line portion with its diameter greater than the wire and a new all line halyard will suit well.

I had the same situation with my 1973 vessel and successfully replaced my wire-rope halyard with an all line halyard with the diameter of the rope on my old halyard.

I used Endura braid with a outer coating of braid over my dyneema core and I'm very pleased with my result.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

I agree that this is not a stupid question, but I do feel that it has an easy answer. From this quoted paragraph above, it seems that you have a clear image of your sheave. Your older wire-rope halyard did accommodate the line portion with its diameter greater than the wire and a new all line halyard will suit well.

I had the same situation with my 1973 vessel and successfully replaced my wire-rope halyard with an all line halyard with the diameter of the rope on my old halyard.

I used Endura braid with a outer coating of braid over my dyneema core and I'm very pleased with my result.

I only wish I had a clear image of my sheaves Hudson! Unfortunately, they are largely hidden away inside their masthead box. I am instead making assumptions about their configuration based on the existing wire/rope halyards and some limited info I've gotten from outside sources.

Initially, I too thought the easy answer was to match a new all-rope halyard to the same diameter as the line portion of my existing one. But after talking to some riggers I was dissuaded due to the possibility of the line, when tensioned & thus stretched, being wedged into the sheave groove for the wire. Given the inaccessibility of the sheaves, I could then be very well screwed. But then your success with this may be due to the non-stretch characteristics of Endura braid using a dyneema core. Hmmmm . . . definitely worth inquiring about. But then wire/rope has served me well for many years.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by Exile

................
............................... I was dissuaded due to the possibility of the line, when tensioned & thus stretched, being wedged into the sheave groove for the wire.
...............

but the rope portion of your wire/rope halyard rode this same sheave for many years without wedging into the groove, right? However, I see your point too. The tension is far greater at the time when the sail is hoisted and finished as the head is pulled tight. I'm also working with a smaller jib and shorter mast on my less LOA and ketch rig. It's probably telling that I can hoist my entire genoa by hand before the last finishing tension with the winch. I understand your concerns.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

but the rope portion of your wire/rope halyard rode this same sheave for many years without wedging into the groove, right? However, I see your point too. The tension is far greater at the time when the sail is hoisted and finished as the head is pulled tight. I'm also working with a smaller jib and shorter mast on my less LOA and ketch rig. It's probably telling that I can hoist my entire genoa by hand before the last finishing tension with the winch. I understand your concerns.

Yes, by the time I've hoisted far enough to require the winch (and thus significant tension) the wire portion and not the line is already around the sheave where it remains. So no chance of the line getting wedged. This is also why the respective lengths of the wire & line portions are critical. Whew! I never imagined this getting so complex but it sounds like much of it is due to the rather unique Hood Stoway system (functions beautifully but now rather long-in-the-tooth). I suspect it was designed around using wire/rope since modern low-stretch/high strength cordage was not around back then.

Apologies to the OP for the hijack but hopefully some of the discussion is also relevant for him/her.

[Jim Cate]

FWIW:

I have used low stretch halyards (several different types of cordage, but all with low strtch cores and dacron covers), running over the dual groove wire/ sheaves for decades now. i have not had any identifiable issues resulting from those sheaves.

I think that if you use the same diameter line as was the rope portion of the wire/rope predecessor there is no significant risk of jamming nor of excessive wear.

Jim

[jeanathon]

Originally Posted by Exile

Yes, by the time I've hoisted far enough to require the winch (and thus significant tension) the wire portion and not the line is already around the sheave where it remains. So no chance of the line getting wedged. This is also why the respective lengths of the wire & line portions are critical. Whew! I never imagined this getting so complex but it sounds like much of it is due to the rather unique Hood Stoway system (functions beautifully but now rather long-in-the-tooth). I suspect it was designed around using wire/rope since modern low-stretch/high strength cordage was not around back then.

Apologies to the OP for the hijack but hopefully some of the discussion is also relevant for him/her.

Not at all exile. I appreciate you maintaining the thread as I have been to busy to respond much.

[UNCIVILIZED]

If your sheaves are well & truly buried within the spar, you might borrow (or buy) a bore scope, & either take pics of them through it, view them, or (preferably) both. That way you can ascertain their health, plus that of the insides of the masthead, looking for burrs all the while. And it'll also let you see what groove profile they have, definitively.

Should you really want purely rope halyards, but the thought of jamming between a sheave & the mast is holding you back. Going up a size, diameter wise, may be an option. If the sheaves are of a large enough radius so as not to cause premature wear in the cordage by virtue of making it take an excessively sharp turn. That way the halyards will perhaps have enough extra bulk to them so that they cannot jam, up there.

The above said, I'd suggest really investigating what it would take to properly inspect your sheaves, & the sheave box while the mast is down. Along with thinking hard on whether you might want to add any components or accessories to the mast now. Ditto on extra halyards.