Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-05-2017, 12:59   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Fort William, Highland, Scotland
Boat: Bavaria Cruiser 40
Posts: 917
Images: 16
Storm Sails

After a fun day of battling 25 to 35kt winds I got to thinking about our sails and in particular a storm sail wardrobe.

At present we have a furling genoa/jib (109%) and an in mast furling main (yeah I can hear the howls from the crowds but we manage quite happily with it thank you very much). Obviously these are not really designed for dealing with real storm conditions as there is no way you could properly sheet them in tight and they are no where near heavy enough cloth to survive a prolonged storm.

So my question to the collective is how to add storm sails to my rig?

I do have a secondary sail track in the main alongside the in mast furling track



This I feel could be used to hank on a properly designed and cut try sail using my topping lift (which frankly with a gas lift kicker is redundant) as I can't use the main halyard with the main furled tightly into the mast out of the way. Using the outhaul from the main the trysail could then be pulled tight along the boom as per any other sail.
The Outhaul:


Am I missing something fundamental with this idea?

With the storm jib I do have a spinnaker halyard up front but do not have a jib stay. So am I correct in thinking there is a design of storm jib that hanks around a furled genoa and is then sheeted back to deck cleats? or possibly sheet the genoa to the cleats and use the genoa cars, pulleys and winches to sheet the storm jib?

Ideas and pictures would be appreciated

Cheers and cold beers

Keiron
kas_1611 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 13:08   #2
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,856
Re: Storm Sails

To do it properly and have the storm sail function correctly, you will need to add an inner forestay to attach the storm jib.

It's a nice addition and your boat will sail better on those windy days. The trouble everyone has with simply furling in the genoa, is two fold. First it loses it's shape and second, by the time it's furled in enough, it's way too high up and messes up your sail balance. The storm jib will be closer to the mast and closer to the deck and then you'll be able balance it with the furled main.

Adding a removable inner forestay is not that difficult or expensive. Look at the picture of my boat which is cutter rigged; basically, you'll be adding a removable forstay in the same place as our staysail. When I say removable, it means that where it attaches to the deck fitting is removable and can be repositioned further back when not in use. The mast fitting is fixed.
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 13:18   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Fort William, Highland, Scotland
Boat: Bavaria Cruiser 40
Posts: 917
Images: 16
Re: Storm Sails

Ken,

Not sure it is physically possible to secure a jib stay to my deck without some major reconstruction work as there are no "dedicated" reinforcement points that I can see. Add in no jib halyard in the mast and one fears that it would have to remain an unworkable dream. It would also make storing the dinghy a bit of a pig too but that's an aside.

In an ideal world yes or if we were planning on serious bluewater cruising. In that scenario we wouldn't have in mast furling mainsail either or if we did it would be a performance one with vertical battens at least.

I guess for the storm jib I am looking for a realistic option that would work for the shorter term to get across the Adriatic or from Turkey to Cyprus if the weather suddenly got worse and we had to run for shelter or battle though it.

I don't want to bodge something but at the same time I know my furling genoa won't do the job either.

Cheers

Keiron
kas_1611 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 13:33   #4
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Storm Sails

Yes, a trysail might be a decent idea. Though many fans of in mast furling state that their mains are up for the task. Personally I can' say whether such is true or not, especially in your case. So...

Assuming you go with a trysail, figure out another plan for sheeting besides using your main's outhaul. As you definitely don't want to be wrestling with it in the midst of a storm. Plus you need the outhaul to be connected to the main so that it says rolled up, non? As in point of fact it's not so much an outhaul, as part of the main's sheeting system.

In terms of headsails, look into what your options are for an inner forestay. Either a Solent Stay, or a Cutter Stay. Since any sail that you wrap around a furled jib will have both terrible shape, & horrid performance. Given that it'll be operating right behind a huge mass of disturbed air, thanks to the rolled up cylinder which is the furled jib.

Also, dealing with the sheets on the furled jib would be problematic, especially in terms of what to do with them so that they keep the jib furled. While at the same time allowing for a clip on sail to slide up & over them, & into proper position.

So look into proper heavy air sails, with the appropriate features & means of flying them. Including dedicated, proper halyards for them. Knowing that anything connected to such sails will see extreme loadings. Much more than your working sails do.

Here are a couple of articles & threads on the topics above:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ay-127556.html
https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...y_11824-1.html
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 13:34   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 20,420
Re: Storm Sails

25 to 30kts is not storm conditions, not even a gale, but it got you thinking. OK.

With inmast furling, your main becomes a storm main or nearly so. As the wind pipes up and the sail is furled in, the demand on cloth weight becomes less. You will also notice the smaller outstanding part get gradually heavier due to layers up of the clew patch and the sunbrella patches there.

Inmast furling mains are cut extra flat and may also have hollow leech. In such a case they are actually nearly a perfect heavy wind sail. And being able to minutely adjust their area is a HUGE plus and advantage over a regular storm main. Wind is hardly ever stable in a storm and most storm sails leave the boat dangerously underpowered in the lulls.

This much said, Where the 'reef point' comes on leech and luff, you will want extra strength. You sailmaker can give this sail areas extra reef patches there. These are normally enough.

And, off course you can have a spare sail for this groove just in case the main, becomes useless. Something in about 350 gramm and about 30% or less of the mainsail. An optional extra never hurts.

As for a good storm foresail, you are in the wrong boat. I do not remember any storm jib fitting on any Bavaria. You will suffer upwind but again beam reaching or running you can do with furled regular sail. If they are in good condition, furled properly, they will suffer no damage from an occasional storm.

So I would basically stick to the guns. Except if you are planning an immediate and extended offshore adventure that would take you to areas where storms are a rule.

Cheers,
b.
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 13:55   #6
Moderator Emeritus
 
roverhi's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1976 Sabre 28-2
Posts: 7,505
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: Storm Sails

ATN makes a storm jib that attaches to a furled sail. Have but have never tried ito hoist it. Have questions about how well it will hoist wrapped around the furled sail when there is serious wind.

For furling sails that will see all around use, material should be heavier to take the higher loads when furled in high wind conditions. Foam or rope in the luff will make for a better setting sail when furled. Typically it is not the cloth that fails in an overstressed sail but the stitching. The sail may still be ruined by stretch in the cloth from overload. When I say ruined that is what the racer or perfornce cruisers opinion would be. Sail will still function in lighter air and off the wind but will have too much heeling force with reduced forward drive. Radial cut sails may hold up better to abuse it are costlier compared to bias or miter cut sails. Laminated sails will hold their shape almost to the point of failure but tend to explode when they fail. Personally wouldn't go that route especially because of their susceptibility to UV damage.

On my boat went with a heavy 135 genoa with foam luff that will never come down on a passage. Will put up with the poor shape when furled beyond 110 percent. Hopefull will be sailing other than hard on the wind where shape is not such a big thing.
__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a, Pearson 35
'Ms American Pie', Sabre 28 Mark II
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 14:26   #7
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 18,398
Images: 22
Re: Storm Sails

Peter is talking about something like this:

Storm Jib Luff Sleeve | eBay

One other major advantage of the inmast main is that as it is reefed the centre of effort is moved closer to the mast. Unfortunately doing the same with a storm jib requires a separate stay which you may not be able to fit. As you say you don't want to bodge this. The best we can manage is a separate forestay which connects about 12 inches behind the furling genoa and has its own Dyneema forestay and haylard.

One question you could ask experienced med cruisers is have they ever used a trysail? I think the answer will be telling.

Pete
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Storm Sail.jpg
Views:	134
Size:	47.1 KB
ID:	148593  
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 14:34   #8
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,856
Re: Storm Sails

Another method that works for us, is furling in the main to about 25%, meaning that 75% of the sail is furled, then run your engine to assist with steering and make up for not having your jib up.

It works and will save you some money. You probably saw our video of doing this, if not I'll post it again. It'll get you where you want to go.
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 21:40   #9
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,134
Re: Storm Sails

The difference in practicality in rolling up a in mast main to storm sail size vs setting a trysail is pretty substantial, even if the trysail is bagged at the foot of the mast. One is a simple and often practiced procedure, the other something requiring time spent at the mast struggling with unfamiliar hardware and cloth. I personally feel that this ability is one of the few saving graces of roll up mains!

As to the luff sleeve storm jib... I've never yet talked to anyone who has actually deployed and used one in anger. I think they are as near as dammit to being useless for their avowed purpose. A removable Dyneema stay, even if it must lie immediately behind the furled genoa, coupled with a proper storm jib, will actually work. Might be a struggle to get it set up under storm conditions, but once done (possibly well before the wx gets out of hand) it will actually help drive the boat.

I can't speak for your boat, but we've done pretty well with a triple reefed main and no foresail in storm conditions. Our boat is fractional rigged, so the main is the big driver in most conditions. Can't point very high (45-50 deg apparent) but can make some way to windward with that setup.

Each boat will require a different plan, but keeping it simple and easy to set up and use in bad conditions is a good goal.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 23:02   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Fort William, Highland, Scotland
Boat: Bavaria Cruiser 40
Posts: 917
Images: 16
Re: Storm Sails

Many thanks to all for their valued input in this and especially for links etc. There's a lot to consider, especially the installation of any additional stays.

I'm intrigued as to how a Dyneema/Spectra stay might work and if this could be, somehow, rigged up off our forward cleats as these are already a strong point. However it would still need connecting to the mast and there would still need to be a jib halyard installed so right now this is purely research.

Honestly I had never really considered the in mast furling main might be a useable "full on" storm sail but thinking about it there is a truth to what was said. When it is furled in it is very flat and there is a small patch of UV protection/reinforcement (although in our case not much and it is grey) so perhaps this is the best way to go, at least for now. An emergency main could be a useful addition. Perhaps when it comes to replace our main I can get extra reinforcement added.

In answer to using the outhaul and it keeping the main furled. If I disconnect the outhaul the ratchet holds the main in the mast so all that is needed is something to fix the small amount of sail that sticks out to stop it flapping. A short length of rope to the cleats on the mast would do the job.

Thanks again to all

Keiron
kas_1611 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 23:10   #11
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,856
Re: Storm Sails

Why not just use your spinnaker halyard?
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 23:33   #12
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
Re: Storm Sails

You've getting excellent advice, especially from Kenomac and Barnakiel.

You don't need a trysail for reasons really well explained by Barnakiel, and you really really need the inner forestay, even though it will be an expensive hassle. Bottom line is you just don't want to go out in any kind of weather without a staysail. Key difference to something flown from the forestay is center of effort is moved back towards the mast to balance the deeply reefed mainsail, OR to be used alone.

Just two things to add:

1. You CANNOT use a spare jib halyard or spinnaker halyard. You'll need a new halyard which goes less than all the way up the mast, to pull up the staysail at the right angle.

2. You will need running backstays.


I know - $$$ - but worth every penny.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 23:47   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Fort William, Highland, Scotland
Boat: Bavaria Cruiser 40
Posts: 917
Images: 16
Re: Storm Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Why not just use your spinnaker halyard?
Ken,

As a jib halyard or as a "stay"?

Wouldn't it be in the wrong position and try to haul a jib forward of the genoa as that is what it is designed to do with a spinnaker or cruising chute?

I had thought of the halyard acting as a stay but couldn't figure how to attach it at the bottom or if it would be stiff enough.

Then there is the question of what to use as my jib halyard again. Could a spinnaker up haul be converted to this use? My concern here is the height of the sheave up the mast.

Cheers

Keiron
kas_1611 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 23:52   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Fort William, Highland, Scotland
Boat: Bavaria Cruiser 40
Posts: 917
Images: 16
Re: Storm Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Just two things to add:

1. You CANNOT use a spare jib halyard or spinnaker halyard. You'll need a new halyard which goes less than all the way up the mast, to pull up the staysail at the right angle.

2. You will need running backstays.


I know - $$$ - but worth every penny.
Dockhead,

No spare jib halyard, well in fact no jib halyard, so it would have to be installed. Along with the lack of strengthen deck for a jib stay this makes it uneconomic for my boat.

If it involves running backstays then I'll forget it and just keep a bloody good watch on the weather forecasts and if we do get caught in a sudden unexpected storm then run on the furled in main with the engine to the nearest safe haven.

Thanks for the input

Keiron
kas_1611 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2017, 23:57   #15
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
Re: Storm Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by kas_1611 View Post
Dockhead,

No spare jib halyard, well in fact no jib halyard, so it would have to be installed. Along with the lack of strengthen deck for a jib stay this makes it uneconomic for my boat.

If it involves running backstays then I'll forget it and just keep a bloody good watch on the weather forecasts and if we do get caught in a sudden unexpected storm then run on the furled in main with the engine to the nearest safe haven.

Thanks for the input

Keiron


Yes, everything having to do with deck hardware is painfully expensive. I went through something like this when I needed new tracks for a new blade jib a few years ago.

Kenomac's method works well -- furl the main way down, flatten it (hard outhaul and vang), and use the engine.

You could also try one of those storm jibs which you put on over the furled genoa. It will not be nearly as useful as a real staysail but it will be much better than nothing.
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sail, sails

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Storm Jibs - Hoisting / Dousing with Sleeve, Parallel Beads or a Storm Bag ? Chantal Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 3 30-10-2011 11:42
For Sale: Sails, Sails and More Sails Slainte40 Classifieds Archive 4 23-04-2011 11:59
For Sale: Sea Anchor, Storm Tri-Sail, Storm Jib Gailwind Classifieds Archive 15 24-10-2010 06:24
For Sale: Sails, Sails, Sails - Sydney, Australia ribbony Classifieds Archive 6 22-02-2010 19:28
Sails, Sails, Sails... for sale? Jack Long General Sailing Forum 5 13-08-2008 23:41

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:33.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.