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Old 14-04-2016, 10:29   #1
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Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

My Morgan is rigged for an asymmetric with the tack line to my anchor roller and the spinnaker halyard on a crane above and forward of the jib halyard. I have a roller reefing 135 jib. It seems to me that I might be able to fly a storm jib by using the spinnaker halyard attaching the tack line to the halyard, hanking the sail on that, and adding a second, fixed length tack line from a fitting on the anchor roller. Certainly tension would not be ideal but the lines were sized for large loads. Because this would place the storm jib forward of the roller reefed jib all I need to do is run my sheets outside of the forestay. It all,seems so easy. What have I missed ?
If the storm jib was left to fly free, held only by the head and tack would the resulting stretching forces be too much for any sail? That is why I assumed a need to hank onto the spinnaker tack line and run a separate line to the jib tack.
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Old 14-04-2016, 11:09   #2
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

You really need a stay to mount your storm jib on, as they see a Lot of load, so free flying is definitely out.
Plus, even if it had a built in luff rope, akin to a Code 0, the load which you would need to crank onto your halyard, in order to get proper luff tension, would be huge. Along with the fact that spinnaker halyard cranes are notorious for failing under high loads. Which definitely isn't something that you want on the menu, when circumstances are already being measured on the "dire scale".

And in such a situation it isn't just the strength of the halyard which counts, but more importantly, it's resistance to stretch. And kite halyards are rarely made of Vectran or PBO.

Also, you need a Very solid attachment point for the sail's lower end. As without being able to get proper luff tension on the sail, you wont have much, if any, upwind ability.
Plus which, such a baggy sail will greatly increase your heeling moment, further increasing your leeway (lack of upwind & pointing ability). And control over the boat.

It's not terribly tough, nor expensive, to have an inner forestay/staysail stay added, along with a halyard for it. And such is the way to go, if you truly need to use the sail for it's intended purpose.
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Old 14-04-2016, 11:38   #3
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

None of what OP wrote will work. In high winds the stay bends significantly, a 20 ft stay with a storm jib hanked on and sheeted to prevent flog will bend off about 3 feet!!! in high winds. Then the hanks will wear through your halyard in about 45 minutes. We sailed once in 70kts on the beam and the first 3 hours the wind instrument was pegged at 60, another boat measured 70. Then it started reducing as we neared the coast. When I dropped the sail, the top 3 piston hanks had worn through.

The position of the sail at the front of the boat will make it DANGEROUS because you might be blowing down on a lee shore, and you will not be able to tack up. The boat simply will not turn. The center of effort will be too far ahead of the center of lateral resistance.

My advice is twofold.
Please get yourself some experience in over 40 or 50 knots to KNOW what its like. You cannot sit in an armchair and figure it out. (we have sailed in over 40 many times, and sometimes for days on end)
Look at serious cruising boats and ocean racers, and see where and how they do it.
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Old 14-04-2016, 11:59   #4
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

^^^ What they said.

Really, the whole point of storm sails is to bring the center of effort down and in. Reefing the main does this by moving the sail closer to the mast, and down (doesn't matter if it is slab reefing, in boom reefing, or in mast reefing, they all bring effort down and in). Storm jib should do the same thing. Preferably inner stay, as hoisting the storm jib on the head/forestay does bring effort down, but not in. Moving the center of effort out and forward would not be good.

If nothing else, just think about doing all that work out past the bow of the boat in the conditions where you need the storm jib. This is another reason for an inner stay, you aren't way out on the pointy, narrow bit of the boat when the sh!t is hitting the fan.
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Old 14-04-2016, 17:22   #5
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

Yes, the storm jib needs to be on the stay.

If you add a new stay for it, be sure that it is well supported, that the loads are taken out properly. Do not just put a pad eye on the deck, it needs to have a true support with the loads taken out and spread on the hull. You will be glassing in a partial bulkhead to do that job properly.

The strength of wind does not increase linearly, it is a geometric progression, and the forces upon storm sails are quite considerable. In thinking about this, see how robust your stem head fitting is. A new stay and its support will need to be just as strong. It IS only a little sail, but the forces are huge.

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Old 14-04-2016, 18:43   #6
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

Agree with all the replies so far. Struggled with the same question, and settled on a Gale Sail modification for the storm jib. Happy so far, but have not had to use it in real anger.
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Old 15-04-2016, 10:25   #7
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

I've always liked Shannon Yachts except for the long bowsprit. I struggled with their concept of a Scutter rig where the working jib was further out on the bowsprit. And why were they the only boat builder using that approach??

And I've always enjoyed Bob Perry's comment that Walt was a better builder than designer...a little professional competition?

Here is their explanation:
The Scutter headsail arrangement has a conventional roller furling 120% to 150% genoa positioned at the stemhead, and four feet forward of that on the bow platform is another stay that accepts a working jib also on a roller furler.
In less than 20 knots of wind, the boat is sailed just like a sloop, with main and full genoa. As the wind picks up, the genoa is rolled in 33% to a predetermined and reinforced position. With more wind, the genoa is fully furled and the
working jib is rolled out. The jib can also be reduced by 33%. Also, if wind conditions dictate, there is a third removable stay that is attached on the foredeck for a storm jib in extreme conditions

Another feature of the Scutter rig is that the center of effort on the headsails moves forward as the sails are furled, which will reduce the weather helm typically encountered on other boats in the higher wind ranges. The Scutter rig also incorporates a mast head crane resulting in the relocation of the back stays further aft. This allows for 15% more roach in the fully battened mainsail, enabling the Scutter to sail to windward reasonably well without the use of headsails.
By eliminating the dependency on large overlapping genoas the Scutter rig requires much less winch work sailing to windward than a sloop. The features of the Scutter can be combined with the addition of a fully battened mizzen for a Sketch rig, with
endless possibilities for the cruising sailor. Nearly every Shannon owner since 1994 has ordered a Sketch or a Scutter
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Old 15-04-2016, 11:11   #8
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

Hanking on to a halyard doesn't sound sound. Pun intended. You did say storm jib however. If in a pinch and set up to do it may not be bad?
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Old 15-04-2016, 11:57   #9
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

I'm guessing that the reason the Scutter is configured that way is because tacking your 'everyday' genoa past an inner stay is a PITA (I have a cutter rig and I love it, but moving a big genoa past the staysail can be annoying). By putting the smaller, less used sail forward of the genoa you get a freely tacking genoa, but have the heavier weather sail always handy. And when the wind gets stronger and the sail is smaller it gets easier to tack the jib between the stays.

I still think moving down and in is the best approach (one of the reasons I really like a cutter rig). It gives you a much more stable, and larger work area near the mast for whatever sail handling you have to do. It reduces loads at the masthead, and brings the loads further down the mast. All good things in my mind when that moderate low deepens to a full tropical depression.
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Old 15-04-2016, 12:59   #10
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sy_gilana View Post
None of what OP wrote will work. In high winds the stay bends significantly, a 20 ft stay with a storm jib hanked on and sheeted to prevent flog will bend off about 3 feet!!! in high winds. Then the hanks will wear through your halyard in about 45 minutes. We sailed once in 70kts on the beam and the first 3 hours the wind instrument was pegged at 60, another boat measured 70. Then it started reducing as we neared the coast. When I dropped the sail, the top 3 piston hanks had worn through.

The position of the sail at the front of the boat will make it DANGEROUS because you might be blowing down on a lee shore, and you will not be able to tack up. The boat simply will not turn. The center of effort will be too far ahead of the center of lateral resistance.

My advice is twofold.
Please get yourself some experience in over 40 or 50 knots to KNOW what its like. You cannot sit in an armchair and figure it out. (we have sailed in over 40 many times, and sometimes for days on end)
Look at serious cruising boats and ocean racers, and see where and how they do it.
I agree with all of this. We haven't even discussed running backs or Highfield levers, which would be appropriate here. You want a scrap of sail close to the main, assuming all else is doused. You are basically in survivial mode and are using just a little thrust to give directionality to the boat and to make the rudder effective while running off (if that's even possible). The step after this is bare poles OR towing a drogue because you are exceeding hull speed and are in danger of rolling or pitchpoling.

I think you should try a couple of Atlantic deliveries in November and see what works.
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Old 15-04-2016, 19:19   #11
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

Have you thought about using a Solent rig? This is a duplicate forestay which is fitted parallel to the standard forestay but is about 20% to 25% back. This enables the fitting of a smaller heavier jib to be hanked on the Solent stay. When the wind gets too over the top for comfort simply drop/furl the regular headsail and hoist the smaller Solent rigged sail.
Another bonus to the Solent rig is that on fine days you may be able to run a number 3 jib inside the asymmetric spinnaker.
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Old 15-04-2016, 22:24   #12
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by topcar View Post
Have you thought about using a Solent rig? This is a duplicate forestay which is fitted parallel to the standard forestay but is about 20% to 25% back. This enables the fitting of a smaller heavier jib to be hanked on the Solent stay. When the wind gets too over the top for comfort simply drop/furl the regular headsail and hoist the smaller Solent rigged sail.
Another bonus to the Solent rig is that on fine days you may be able to run a number 3 jib inside the asymmetric spinnaker.
So then, you mean as a Staysail then, as is common on racers? With the tack in the right place, it'll definitely give you some extra speed.

If you want to add a Solent Stay, you can configure it to do double duty, in that, you make it so that you can connect it at deck level to both the "Solent" position, & to the "Cutter" position Removable Cutter Stay vs Solent Stay
Rigging up the hardware to do such isn't tough, & if you want to buy it off of the shelf, Colligo Marine (& others) have plenty of options so that you can make it happen.

The big perk being, is that you can fly a lot of other sails on a Solent Stay, when your primary headstay's occupied with a furler.
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Old 15-04-2016, 22:36   #13
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Yes, the storm jib needs to be on the stay.

If you add a new stay for it, be sure that it is well supported, that the loads are taken out properly. Do not just put a pad eye on the deck, it needs to have a true support with the loads taken out and spread on the hull. You will be glassing in a partial bulkhead to do that job properly.

The strength of wind does not increase linearly, it is a geometric progression, and the forces upon storm sails are quite considerable. In thinking about this, see how robust your stem head fitting is. A new stay and its support will need to be just as strong. It IS only a little sail, but the forces are huge.

Ann
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On my Cal 39 there was provision for an inner forestay to fly a storm hib. There was a tang on the mast about where the lower forward shrouds attached to the mast. There was a pad eye on the foredeck a little aft of the anchor windlass. And, most important, the pad eye had an identical pad eye under the deck held by the same thru bolts that held the above deck pad eye. And there was another pad eye on the keelson. When using the inner forestay one attached a wire, about the same diameter as the wire of the inner forestay, between the pad eye under the deck and the pad eye on the keelson. This wire was in line with the inner forestay, in effect making the inner forestay continuous between the mast tag and the keelson. (Keelson is not a common term understood by all. It is the place where the sides of the hull meet.)
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Old 17-04-2016, 01:12   #14
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Re: Storm jib on spinnaker halyard?

One option for a Forestay, or Solent Stay, is to use Textile (Synthetic) rigging. As there's less wear on the sail's hanks. An already mentioned issue (sometimes) with heavy weather sails.
And it's a Very proven setup, via a multitude of round the world racing boat classes, including some of the generations of the VOR boats.

It's described in a bit more detail, in the link in my above post. And also, one can use it in lieu of wire, for the belowdecks length of the stay. With a regular turnbuckle, modern deadeyes, or Spectra lashings. Just as is done with above decks synthetic rigging a 'la Colligo Marine (& similar).
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