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Old 23-12-2015, 12:18   #16
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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Originally Posted by SF Bay Dude View Post
Seeking some thoughts on replacing the standing rig. My recently acquired Skookum 47 has the original rig. Hull and deck were completed in 1982, but the boat was owner finished and not launched until around 1990. 2nd owner bought her in 2001 with 300 hours on the engine, so she was lightly used up to that point. 2nd owner sailed her as far south as Ecuador and then back up to Mexico (Guaymas) where she's been ever since. She's been on the hard since 2007. I personally know the 2nd owner and crewed aboard for 6 months. He treated her right and never pushed her hard.

Chainplates and turnbuckles are cast bronze and holding up just fine. All terminals are swaged. I've inspected all of them, top and bottom, and they look to be sound. No rust or broken strands. If I replace, I am going with Sta-Lock style and 316 SS Wire. I can do it in the yard myself. I've done it before and didn't find it to be that difficult.

My concern is that metal fatigues, whether in use or not. The climate down there is hot, but for the most part it's dry and sunny. I am of the mind to splash and sail her.

Thoughts?

These aren't like car engines. It doesn't matter how many
Miles on the stats vIf they hold tension leave em.
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Old 23-12-2015, 12:24   #17
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

Otoh, get a TowUS contract so when the mast falls, you can get towed in. If the mast is deck stepped, it will most likely come down in one piece. Just do not get hit by it. When they fall, they fall quickly. We lost a mast when the back stay bridle broke. Came down so fast we did not see it fall.
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Old 23-12-2015, 12:24   #18
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
Most cruising folks we knew were switching to stay lock years ago. Your proposed rigging will work. Not the best for long distance sailing. Certainly good enough for club races and weekend puttering.
Are you saying that Stayloks are stronger than swages? That is nonsense. They have a small advantage of being able to replace the wire without having access to a rigging shop. This at a significantly higher price.
Most cruising boats out here in the South Pacific are swage rigged, with a fair number of mechanical fittings also.
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Old 23-12-2015, 12:42   #19
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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Are you saying that Stayloks are stronger than swages? That is nonsense. They have a small advantage of being able to replace the wire without having access to a rigging shop. This at a significantly higher price.
Most cruising boats out here in the South Pacific are swage rigged, with a fair number of mechanical fittings also.
Well times must have changed. Yes, staylocks are stronger than swage fittings. In fact years ago practicalsailor did a write up on this. Not sure what planet your on, but cone fittings way cheaper than swage fittings over the long haul and are simple to replace. Only real effort is bending the wires. When we cruised the pacific for almost 30 years, and the rest of the world for 10, did not find a lot of long distant folks with swage fittings. Think you been living a sheltered life?
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Old 23-12-2015, 12:59   #20
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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Well times must have changed. Yes, staylocks are stronger than swage fittings. In fact years ago practicalsailor did a write up on this. Not sure what planet your on, but cone fittings way cheaper than swage fittings over the long haul and are simple to replace. Only real effort is bending the wires. When we cruised the pacific for almost 30 years, and the rest of the world for 10, did not find a lot of long distant folks with swage fittings. Think you been living a sheltered life?
The swage fittings hold to above the breaking spec of the wire, anything more is not useful. As far as price, you'd have to go through two rerigs before you'd break even. IN my case, on the second rerig the cones for the Norsemens are not available, so the initial additional cost was wasted.
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Think you been living a sheltered life?
Is this some I'm more macho than you statement? Its rigging we are talking about.
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Old 23-12-2015, 13:25   #21
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

Hayn Hi-Mods are easier to use than either Sta-Lok or Norseman and the cones are re-usable.

Hi-MOD Fittings by Hayn Marine

Either a swage or a mechanical fitting, properly done, are plenty strong enough. Mechanical fittings can be inspected easily though. Swages often look good until they are not.
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Old 23-12-2015, 13:32   #22
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

The convenience of having Sta-Loks was proved to me when sailing near Luganville, Vanuatu. We were able to get the wire shipped to us, and re-rig the broken forestay. The rig did not come down, and we managed to get the headfoil ashore without kinking it, all very lucky.

On another occasion, we had our baby stay fail at sea. It was the only wire we hadn't replaced. On the outside, it was shiny and meathook free, but as donradcliffe mentioned, the inside was brown powder!

On yet another occasion, we did lose our stick. It was in 1995, and costs for replacing stick, all running and standing rigging, forestay, repair to bow pulpit, replacement of stanchions, radar, VHF antenna, wind instrument, etc. came to over $20,000, with us doing almost all the work.

So, based on our experience, loss of one wire does not necessarily mean loss of rig, BUT it can. Costs for masts (even if you get a 2nd hand spar and fit parts to it) plus the damage they cause when they fall down, is a lot more than the costs for the wire and StaLoks. How good's your risk tolerance?

All the above are a wordy way of saying, as others have, too, DO IT NOW.

Ann
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Old 23-12-2015, 13:43   #23
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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The convenience of having Sta-Loks was proved to me when sailing near Luganville, Vanuatu. We were able to get the wire shipped to us, and re-rig the broken forestay. The rig did not come down, and we managed to get the headfoil ashore without kinking it, all very lucky.
..
If you can get the wire shipped to you (which you can in most places these days -- at a cost) then you could get it shipped with the swage fittings installed. It would just be a matter of measuring what you had.

I'm not against mechanical fittings, they just cost more. Swages are adequate for offshore boats. As I've already mentioned, the additional cost at the initial rig of my boat for Norsemens was totally wasted when it came time to re-rig due to the lack of cones. Hopefully all the other mechanical fitting companies will still have parts when the re-rigs occur in 10 or 12 years.
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Old 23-12-2015, 13:57   #24
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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..... the additional cost at the initial rig of my boat for Norsemens was totally wasted when it came time to re-rig due to the lack of cones. Hopefully all the other mechanical fitting companies will still have parts when the re-rigs occur in 10 or 12 years.
Cones for Hayn Hi-Mods are re-usable. Buy the fitting once and a re-rig only requires new wire.
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Old 23-12-2015, 14:06   #25
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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If you can get the wire shipped to you (which you can in most places these days -- at a cost) then you could get it shipped with the swage fittings installed. It would just be a matter of measuring what you had.
Paul, sounds good when you say it fast, but you can't fit a swaged fitting through the foil on the furling gear. The Sta-lok fittings saved our bacon there.

And re the strength of swages: yep, when intact they are adequately strong, but the world is full of swages that are slowly failing due to corrosion, cracking and poor practice in the swage process. There have been many threads about this on CF and other sites. So, to me, and to many other folks out cruising, some sort of mechanical terminal makes very good sense.

Being that this boat is rigged with Norsman fittings, I live in hope that some enterprising person will start manufacturing replacement cones.

Jim
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Old 23-12-2015, 14:25   #26
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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Paul, sounds good when you say it fast, but you can't fit a swaged fitting through the foil on the furling gear. The Sta-lok fittings saved our bacon there.

And re the strength of swages: yep, when intact they are adequately strong, but the world is full of swages that are slowly failing due to corrosion, cracking and poor practice in the swage process. There have been many threads about this on CF and other sites. So, to me, and to many other folks out cruising, some sort of mechanical terminal makes very good sense.

Being that this boat is rigged with Norsman fittings, I live in hope that some enterprising person will start manufacturing replacement cones.

Jim
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Good point on the headstay foil.

I'm surprised someone isn't making the Norsemen cones. Maybe its a liability thing. I soon will have a nice collection of lovingly used Norsemen fittings for sale - sans cones.

Its interesting that the Hi-Mods cones are reusable. I wonder how many times you can reuse and get reliable install.
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Old 23-12-2015, 14:29   #27
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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My rule of thumb is, 'If you think you might need to replace it, REPLACE IT!"
I like that rule, makes a lot of sense
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Old 23-12-2015, 14:47   #28
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

It's 25 year old rigging. It should have been replaced 15 years ago...
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Old 23-12-2015, 15:17   #29
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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The swage fittings hold to above the breaking spec of the wire, anything more is not useful. As far as price, you'd have to go through two rerigs before you'd break even. IN my case, on the second rerig the cones for the Norsemens are not available, so the initial additional cost was wasted.
Is this some I'm more macho than you statement? Its rigging we are talking about.
I am assuming this site is about cruising, not day sailing nor weekend racing. Most long distance cruisers will replace their rigs many times. Three years for a world cruise, two if you do it in the great southern seas. You say folks use swage but that is usually for the day/weekend sailors, not for those crossing oceans. If you had read Practical sailor's tests about 25 years ago you would have been aware that norsemen did not perform aswell and Lok got much higher reviews which is why many cruisers changed over. Swage fittings reduce the wire's strength. Cone fittings retain their strength. So get out more, read more, do more and you will be on top of all this rigging stuff.
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Old 23-12-2015, 16:25   #30
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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I don't know what the policy of the American insurance companies is, but in Europe, or more specifically, in the British Isles, they insist on the standing rigging being renewed every ten years. If you can't prove that you've done it your rig is not covered. Personally I would not put to sea with a rig older than 10 years.
To the comments that a rig has been inspected and looks perfect to an experienced rigger, I bet that the same rigger will tell you that fatigue in fittings and wire can remain hidden until they suddenly break.
To the comment that an inactive boat will have much less stress on the rigging, I would say that the wind and wave/wake motion are affecting your rig 24/7, whether you sail the boat or not.
I underwrite 100%.
Professional checking after 6years (non destructive, usually eco....or penetratingbink, NOT visually only!)

And new rigging after 6 more years

And yes, even a marina, or standing dry, works on material.

After a conversation worth a Pantaenius rigging inspector (German).

Point is, SS is from Far East, or lower quality than before.....
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