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Old 22-04-2019, 19:19   #61
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
To eliminate chafe you want zero motion. That is one of the main advantage of interlocking eyes with a cow hitch on a bight. Once it is set, there is no movement.
Thanks Thin, yes I can see it being not needed on the interlocking eyes of the JDS sections ie, no chafe.

So even if you have say 14mm Acera connecting to 8mm, it won't create a pressure point with the smaller diameter line? I was thinking the extra bulk of the climbers webbing tube would help spread the load.

What about where an eye does go around a shackle pin, or shackle body when attaching to a chainplate? Or, if you use Acera for the end of docklines to put over a bollard? Then it seems the webbing would allow movement with less chafe.
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Old 22-04-2019, 19:37   #62
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

BigBeakie,

Our posts speak for themselves. We have provided the Constant Rode Tension solutions so everyone’s equipment can perform better. Not just the Shark Drogue. We’ve also provided the weight requirements for the three types of drag devices. The speed-limiting drogue, the JSD stopping drogue, and the para-anchor. We’ve explained how and why weight requirements change dependent on whether you use Nylon or UHMWPE rode. If you don’t like the recommendations then ignore them.

We feel shock loading is the number one reason for drag device failure. Maybe you feel it’s about improper rigging or from the use of weak materials. Maybe we’re both correct. Our research is online as is NASA’s and the U.S. Navy’s testing of our equipment. You can also contact the U.S. Coast Guard and ask them about their use of the Shark Drogue, since you claim the Shark is not fit for dangerous seas.

From our understanding, forum rules prohibit a service provider from using “citations” if any of their associates were part of the testing process or wrote the report.

For the record, we accept JSD trade-ins, purchase used JSD drogues and resell them to the public. We also manufacture the para-anchor and speed-limiting drogue. We even sell military surplus chutes as an affordable option. So your comments about “opportunity to denigrate” the JSD is patently untrue.

Now we’ll provide information that JSD promoters omit if we feel the post or posts are about selling the JSD, while downplaying the effectiveness of other competing equipment. The JSD promoters don’t like having the record set straight and tend to become hostile. Relevant posts also tend to get buried with a million more posts.

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Old 22-04-2019, 20:41   #63
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Hi SWL,

You know, as I pushed the send button on my post, I thought to myself, "But hang on, they have that new beast of a Besteaver, so will have serious bollards..." but oops, too late.

I'm wondering if a couple of layers of webbing tube ( tube within tube) on the Acera loops would be good. That would be for the cow hitch loop to loop connections of the JSD sections, as well as your bridle loop for throwing over your stern bollards? That allows the Acera to "work" a bit inside the webbing tube to even further reduce friction?

What do you think about that, or is there a better anti chafe material that you think would last longer?
Ah, chafe protection!

Just the subject I have been mulling over lately. I was going to start a new thread asking for advice. I am inexperienced in this regard.

Stopping movement is generally not possible, so adding an extra sleeve to reduce friction or to simply add an extra layer that will be chewed through first (and can hopefully be replaced) will extend the life of any line. The only exception is where the covering allows a build up of heat that can cause damage to the line.

I was thinking of adding sleeves where the bridle of the Acera passes through the panama leads. I think in our case this is the point where maximum movement will occur.

If you are using shackles to attach the bridle, the problem I see there is not chafe, but the issue of diameter. The bridle is made from the thickest Acera and the eye needs to pass around an object at least the same diameter as the line or the strength will start to sky dive.

——————

In general, after a year’s use very few items on board made from single braid UHMWPE that have been subject to higher loads have also been exposed to either a lot of movement or been in contact with a sharp surface, so no significant chafe is visible.

The big exception are the UHMWPE bits associated with the nylon snubber. The snubber extends a whopping metre and a half under load (fascinating to watch!) and so the Acera going over the bow moves back and forth the same way. It is not always going over the smooth roller - it can scrape against the cheeks with yawing.

I have tried using a sleeve of polyester chafe guard. That was a failure, as I was unable to secure it well at the ends. It ended up riding up and simply bunching and restricting movement. I eventually took it off. Lines used by big ships have protection at the ends of any UHMWPE lines. Thinwater, have you dissected any of these to work out construction? I have not explored the options well yet.

The other bit of chafe has also occured as part of the snubber system: on the Bullseye shackle as it passes around the sharp corners of the SS at the base of the furler. There is no room there to add a smooth fitting that the shackle could attach to, or for an extra layer of chafe protection on the shackle so the easiest solution is just to replace that soft shackle yearly, which I have just done (I replaced all three in the end). These old shackles don’t go to waste. I am finding them useful in the lazarette and sail locker to hang up all sorts of objects.

Regarding sleeves in general, for smaller diameters, just using the outer covering of rope would work. For larger diameters does anyone know where they can be sourced online in Europe? Ordering from the US not only incurs taxes, but delays and difficulties getting to where the item is being held. The fishing chandleries around here seem to have only huge sizes and only in polyester. The yachting chandleries have nothing.

I have a jumbled assortment of questions on chafe protection and any advice from anyone would be very appreciated.

SWL
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Old 22-04-2019, 23:50   #64
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Ange, who is your supplier in Australia? My meager search talents fail to come up with a retail outlet. I'm looking for several sizes for applications in the near future.

Jim
Hi Jim
I didn’t receive a reply from either from Wilhelmsen in Australia or Timm in Slovakia, so I rang their Melbourne office.

I was told Acera is not sold through retail outlets anywhere worldwide . No idea how it popped up in the fishing chandlery in the Netherlands then .

To buy any in Australia, you need to send an email to Marine Products Customer Service in Singapore (anyone can apparently place an order):
wss.cs.singapore.products@wilhelmsen.com

They will then email you a quotation. The rope will then be sent via air or sea from Slovakia.

Life Ropework wasn't meant to be easy ....

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Old 23-04-2019, 00:13   #65
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by Fi2010 View Post
BigBeakie,

Our posts speak for themselves. We have provided the Constant Rode Tension solutions so everyone’s equipment can perform better. Not just the Shark Drogue. We’ve also provided the weight requirements for the three types of drag devices. The speed-limiting drogue, the JSD stopping drogue, and the para-anchor. We’ve explained how and why weight requirements change dependent on whether you use Nylon or UHMWPE rode. If you don’t like the recommendations then ignore them.

We feel shock loading is the number one reason for drag device failure. Maybe you feel it’s about improper rigging or from the use of weak materials. Maybe we’re both correct. Our research is online as is NASA’s and the U.S. Navy’s testing of our equipment. You can also contact the U.S. Coast Guard and ask them about their use of the Shark Drogue, since you claim the Shark is not fit for dangerous seas.

From our understanding, forum rules prohibit a service provider from using “citations” if any of their associates were part of the testing process or wrote the report.

For the record, we accept JSD trade-ins, purchase used JSD drogues and resell them to the public. We also manufacture the para-anchor and speed-limiting drogue. We even sell military surplus chutes as an affordable option. So your comments about “opportunity to denigrate” the JSD is patently untrue.

Now we’ll provide information that JSD promoters omit if we feel the post or posts are about selling the JSD, while downplaying the effectiveness of other competing equipment. The JSD promoters don’t like having the record set straight and tend to become hostile. Relevant posts also tend to get buried with a million more posts.

OK. You seem to believe that I am unjustified in my observation that you have made online comments that portray the JSD in a bad light. I could go through them and list them to make the point, but I won't.... unless you want me to.

All I asked was what evidence do you have that the parting of the rode on Goodall's JSD was caused by shock loading, given that the essential design feature of the JSD is that it hangs down in the water and therefore has a progressive increase in load in response to the boat/wave interaction, therefore the opposite of shock loading. Therefore your statement did not make sense to me. It's a simple question, that you did not really address.

I do value the testing you've done on constant rode tension, it is a very valuable contribution & particularly wrt parachute anchoring on stretchy nylon rode where shock loading after the recoil is a very real problem. FYI I have incorporated that into our para anchor setup.

And yes, I certainly would like to read Coast Guard reports on the Shark used under very adverse conditions, i.e. large fully developed seas with breaking waves, or coastal shallower waters with large and very steep braking waves. I again looked under the Shark tab on your website and found no USCG or Navy reports on the Shark. What are you referring to? Am I not looking in the right place?

Also, what information is omitted by "JSD promotors" that we should know about? I trust you're not referring to John over at Morgans Cloud? Because as a recent member of that site, I find him to be as straight a shooter as there is, and his writings on safety matters make perfect sense, to me anyway.
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Old 23-04-2019, 00:28   #66
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Hi Jim
I didn’t receive a reply from either from Wilhelmsen in Australia or Timm in Slovakia, so I rang their Melbourne office.

I was told Acera is not sold through retail outlets anywhere worldwide . No idea how it popped up in the fishing chandlery in the Netherlands then .

To buy any in Australia, you need to send an email to Marine Products Customer Service in Singapore (anyone can apparently place an order):
wss.cs.singapore.products@wilhelmsen.com

They will then email you a quotation. The rope will then be sent via air or sea from Slovakia.

Life Ropework wasn't meant to be easy ....

SWL
Jim, email Peter.Bernat@wilhelmsen.com who operates out of Timms in Slovakia. A really helpful and knowledgeable guy who can take your order and post out as much Acera as you want.
I think you may find Singapore only does large ship docking lines by the kilometer & they will flick you to Peter anyway for yacht lines.

Also if an application can use a stiffer line,( like bridles?) check out Amundsen daGama That has 147kN (approx 14.7 Ton) MBL in 12mm. It has 12 strand core in Acera and 24 strand cover in HMWPE, but it looks unspliceable, so I'm not sure how to work with it and put in an eye.
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Old 23-04-2019, 00:51   #67
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I am surprised nylon was used in the construction of Susie’s drogue. Its stretch characteristics that make it good for snubbers are not ideal for a drogue.

SWL
Remember that not an inch of Uhmwpe was allowed on the GG boats because it was not available 50 years ago. But I guess they could have used something else...
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Old 23-04-2019, 04:59   #68
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
...The only exception is where the covering allows a build up of heat that can cause damage to the line....
I'm not sure this is true. Tug operators use chafe covers on Dyneema, and this is why:

Heat can be trapped by a cover IF the heat is generated by stretch. This can happen on nylon ropes over about 5/8" (small lines cool quickly). However, that is not the case here:

  • The friction is on the outside. Stretch heating is on the inside.
  • Dyneema does not stretch. Trivial internal heating.
  • Dyneema lines on boats are generally <1/2". They will cool rapidly.
  • Eyes do not overheat internally because they stretch 1/2 as much as the rest of the line. It will overheat somewhere else, since the covering does not double heat retention.
  • Chafe protection of a JSD bridle in chocks is different from nylon dockline in three of those factors.
So unless there is evidence, I think you can cross heating off your list of concerns.
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Old 23-04-2019, 08:17   #69
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

So this is a screenshot of a recently posted "La Vagabond" YouTube video. It is an Outremer 45

I zoomed in to get a better look, it appears to be synthetic Dyneema or equivalent. The attachment to the hull looks like a REALLY tight bend. Is this a problem? potential point of failure? or are the loads low enough not to matter?
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Old 23-04-2019, 09:52   #70
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
I'm not sure this is true. Tug operators use chafe covers on Dyneema, and this is why:

Heat can be trapped by a cover IF the heat is generated by stretch. This can happen on nylon ropes over about 5/8" (small lines cool quickly). However, that is not the case here:

  • The friction is on the outside. Stretch heating is on the inside.
  • Dyneema does not stretch. Trivial internal heating.
  • Dyneema lines on boats are generally <1/2". They will cool rapidly.
  • Eyes do not overheat internally because they stretch 1/2 as much as the rest of the line. It will overheat somewhere else, since the covering does not double heat retention.
  • Chafe protection of a JSD bridle in chocks is different from nylon dockline in three of those factors.
So unless there is evidence, I think you can cross heating off your list of concerns.
Hi Thinwater
Thanks for the detailed reply. Sorry to be misleading - I wasn’t referring exclusively to UHMWPE when I wrote the following.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Stopping movement is generally not possible, so adding an extra sleeve to reduce friction or to simply add an extra layer that will be chewed through first (and can hopefully be replaced) will extend the life of any line. The only exception is where the covering allows a build up of heat that can cause damage to the line.
I am planning to add chafe protection on the Acera as it passes through the panama leads. I am unsure of the best method of attaching the sleeve to the Acera though.
Lines used by big ships have protection at the ends of any UHMWPE lines. Thinwater, have you dissected any of these to work out construction?

SWL
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Old 23-04-2019, 09:57   #71
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by Tillsbury View Post
Remember that not an inch of Uhmwpe was allowed on the GG boats because it was not available 50 years ago. But I guess they could have used something else...
Polyester does not have the same stretch characteristics as nylon. As I understand it, up to now double braid poly was the best option.
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Old 23-04-2019, 11:53   #72
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
To eliminate chafe you want zero motion. That is one of the main advantage of interlocking eyes with a cow hitch on a bight. Once it is set, there is no movement.

Why cow hitch the elements of the JSD together? Would it not be better, or at least no worse, to splice the elements together? You wouldn’t be able to use just one element of the JSD as a speed limiting drogue, but that’s a very minor use case IMO.

Here’s what we plan to do for our 156 cone JSD:
- Use one length of 12mm Acera for one bridle leg and the leader, and splice the second bridle to that length at the correct distance to create two equal bridle legs. Their ends are eye spliced with thimbles so they can be shackled to the chain plates we’ve installed.
- Middle segment of 10mm Acera is long spliced to the leader at one end and the tail at the other.
- Tail segment of 8mm Acera is long spliced to the end of the middle. The other end of the tail is eye spliced with a thimble so it can be shackled to the chain providing the weight.

Are there any problems splicing the elements as described? Would the varying rope thicknesses cause problems or weaknesses?

But if cow hitching is the recommended way to join the elements, then how are the bridle legs connected to the leader? Does the leader provide the bight, and the two bridles are cow hitched side by side to that bight?

BTW, thanks for all the contact information. I’ve contacted both Timms and Access Ropes (they sell Southern Ropes) via their respective website contact forms and have heard nothing back. I shall try Peter’s email as suggested. Unfortunately here in NZ we have no alternatives to Dyneema available.
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Old 23-04-2019, 13:02   #73
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Why cow hitch the elements of the JSD together? Would it not be better, or at least no worse, to splice the elements together? You wouldn’t be able to use just one element of the JSD as a speed limiting drogue, but that’s a very minor use case IMO.

Here’s what we plan to do for our 156 cone JSD:
- Use one length of 12mm Acera for one bridle leg and the leader, and splice the second bridle to that length at the correct distance to create two equal bridle legs. Their ends are eye spliced with thimbles so they can be shackled to the chain plates we’ve installed.
- Middle segment of 10mm Acera is long spliced to the leader at one end and the tail at the other.
- Tail segment of 8mm Acera is long spliced to the end of the middle. The other end of the tail is eye spliced with a thimble so it can be shackled to the chain providing the weight.

Are there any problems splicing the elements as described? Would the varying rope thicknesses cause problems or weaknesses?

But if cow hitching is the recommended way to join the elements, then how are the bridle legs connected to the leader? Does the leader provide the bight, and the two bridles are cow hitched side by side to that bight?

BTW, thanks for all the contact information. I’ve contacted both Timms and Access Ropes (they sell Southern Ropes) via their respective website contact forms and have heard nothing back. I shall try Peter’s email as suggested. Unfortunately here in NZ we have no alternatives to Dyneema available.

Confirm this with someone who knows more about than I do, but AFAIK it is fine to splice different size single braid together, so long as the size different is not more than x%. I don't see any problem with your plan. I chose interlocking loops like this: Click image for larger version

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ID:	190689(not cow hitches) so that I could take the sections apart, but if you don't have any particularly need to do that, then why not splice them.


Where I did use a cow hitch, was at the bridle attachment, like this:


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Old 23-04-2019, 19:10   #74
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

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I chose interlocking loops like this: Attachment 190689(not cow hitches) so that I could take the sections apart, but if you don't have any particularly need to do that, then why not splice them.
Hi Dockhead
The “interlocking loops” you used is just a cow hitch.
The final “dressing” is different when one line is cow hitched to another line rather than a curved object, but the underlying knot is identical.

SWL
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Old 23-04-2019, 21:20   #75
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Re: Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Hi Thinwater
Thanks for the detailed reply. Sorry to be misleading - I wasn’t referring exclusively to UHMWPE when I wrote the following.



I am planning to add chafe protection on the Acera as it passes through the panama leads. I am unsure of the best method of attaching the sleeve to the Acera though.
Lines used by big ships have protection at the ends of any UHMWPE lines. Thinwater, have you dissected any of these to work out construction?

SWL

No I have not. But it's really easy to splice a polyester cover over Dyneema single braid. I've done this many times, where lines pass through jammers.Sail Delmarva: 100 Best Buys--Chapter 16




To prevent sliding/bunching, soak with Spinlock Rp25 and/or try some lock stitching. If you are OK with the line getting a little stiff, Yale Maxijacket will increase the wear of polyester 5-10 times. Really. I didn't believe it either, at all, until I tested it, lab and field. Rope and Knot sells small bottles.
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